Am I just a sucker?

[tsmith7559]

One last comment...If Suh is tagged we would need to restructure CJ:cost 10 mil for 8 mil of relief, Staff: 8 mill for 5.33, Quin: 3mil for 2 mil in relief, so Mr. Ford Suh will cost you $48 mill this year, lol...

 

[LKP]

One last comment...If Suh is tagged we would need to restructure CJ:cost 10 mil for 8 mil of relief, Staff: 8 mill for 5.33, Quin: 3mil for 2 mil in relief, so Mr. Ford Suh will cost you $48 mill this year, lol...

CJ we could partially restructure. 5 million base for 4 million in savings.

This is all money going to the players this year anyway. Just turning salary into a signing bonus. Bonus payments are often deferrred too. Ford is paying this money anyway.

We are 15 million under. 13 in restructures and 5.7 in cuts on top of that. Plenty of room. Plenty of space in 2016 and 2017 even if Suh is re-signed long term. We'll have more space in 2015 if re-signed long term too so we'll see how many restructures we actually have to make.

 

[LKP]

Oh were re-signing Suh now? We were talking franchise..you're a moving target as usual..do your self a favor and put this down in a spreadsheet, like I have, then you'll see the ramifications of tagging and playing him this year

I have it in a spreadsheet and so does spotrac and I know the ramifications. I know we can have the cap space to franchise Suh and have money left over with restructures and cuts. I know our 2016 committments and 2017 commitments. Plenty of room for a Suh franchise without much future hurt (5.1 million in 2016 and 2017 but then we have the cuts so we are better off). In fact less cap committments due to cutting Bush and Tulloch (13 million less 5.1). Great planning by Detroit. And a rising cap.

 

[LKP]

Restructure money is money that is already going to be paid out. Whether it's now or slowly Sep-December doesn't matter to Ford. When you get that through your head, you'll understand. Also that you could defer a bonus payment if you don't have the cash.

26.7 is the cash cost for Suh franchised.

 

[tsmith7559]

CJ we could partially restructure. 5 million base for 4 million in savings.

This is all money going to the players this year anyway. Just turning salary into a signing bonus. Bonus payments are often deferrred too. Ford is paying this money anyway.

We are 15 million under. 13 in restructures and 5.7 in cuts on top of that. Plenty of room. Plenty of space in 2016 and 2017 even if Suh is re-signed long term. We'll have more space in 2015 if re-signed long term too so we'll see how many restructures we actually have to make.

Yes, we will be 11.7 short if he plays under tag. George Johnson appears to be getting possibly a 2nd round tag, prater is up..tell me exactly who is being restructured, for how m u ch and who is being cut, and if it's a post June 1 cut..any other FA we signing?

 

[LKP]

Yes, we will be 11.7 short if he plays under tag. George Johnson appears to be getting possibly a 2nd round tag, prater is up..tell me exactly who is being restructured, for how m u ch and who is being cut, and if it's a post June 1 cut..any other FA we signing?

I already did this. We are 15 under. Calvin 5 million base for 4 million in savings in 2015. Stafford full restructure for 5.2 million in saving and Tate/Quin full for 2 million each ( 4 million total). 13.2 million+15 under plus 5.7 for cutting Tulloch/Bush.

That puts us 33.9 under the cap. 26.7 for a franchise (his 9.7 is already accounted for in the 15 under, so is the draft 1.8 slotted).

That leaves us with 7.2 million in space. That is plenty for Johnson tendered (could be original tender too), Mathis, Prater. Most of those guys won't take up much extra cap space due to top 51 rule. Any year 1 cap hit will be 500 K less in extra room taken up.

You could have Mulhbach, IAQ, Palmer, Collins,Hilliard taking up 500k total of extra room.

Mathis 1 year 1 million. 500k less space. Prater similar to Hauschka. 1.2 less space. George Johnson tendered 800 k less space. Still have 4.2 in room. That's room for Fairley too or a FA of their choosing (guard, tackle, CB) and some left over.

 

[LKP]

Suh long term is even better. His new money I could see eating up 10-11 million in extra cap space. Remeber the 9.7 is already accounted for in the 15 under number.

15-11=4 million then you have the 13.2 in restructures. 17.2 million in room.

We could Fairley, Mathis, Prater, get a new FA guard, new FA tackle and new FA CB with that money and keep Tulloch/Bush too.

 

[mhughes0021]

Its obvious that if we need cap space Tulloch, jones and bush should be gone. Jones has the least amount of production out of the 3. LB we have the most depth out of the group. Bush we could probably still use on the offense if he's every healthy again...but he cost too much for being an injury prone veteran at this point. If you keep any of the 3 it should be Tulloch merely for the work he does in the community. But reality is all 3 of them should be gone if our team was smart.

 

[LKP]

Its obvious that if we need cap space Tulloch, jones and bush should be gone. Jones has the least amount of production out of the 3. LB we have the most depth out of the group. Bush we could probably still use on the offense if he's every healthy again...but he cost too much for being an injury prone veteran at this point. If you keep any of the 3 it should be Tulloch merely for the work he does in the community. But reality is all 3 of them should be gone if our team was smart.

Tulloch is still better than Whitehead but we can live with Whitehead as we found out this year. Jones had production. Part of that run defense, came on at the end with sacks and pressure, the blocked FG. Jones can play DT too. That is huge if we lose Fairley.

Bush can help us too or we turn to Riddick, Bell and draft pick.

There are pros and cons to keeping or getting rid of Bush/Tulloch. You cut bait wiht Tulloch, Bush now, you reduce the dead money you have to spend in 2016. However, you could lose depth at LB and RB or have to use a pick for a RB. Whitehead gets hurt then it's Josh Bynes time. Levy still can't get hurt though I like Van Noy and Whithead on outside still if Levy did get hurt and we had Tulloch.

 

[tsmith7559]

Johnson will be a 2nd round tender-2.187mil, Prater will be 1.7 (hauska), muhl 980,000, practice squad 800,000, 2 more roster spots 1.0 mil, Mathis could very well command more than vet min of 980,000. That's 6.67mil less 4 existing roster spots of 2.04mil
Even if Johnson is min, cost 1.32
Now what??

 

[LKP]

Johnson will be a 2nd round tender-2.187mil, Prater will be 1.7 (hauska), muhl 980,000, practice squad 800,000, 2 more roster spots 1.0 mil, Mathis could very well command more than vet min of 980,000. That's 6.67mil less 4 existing roster spots of 2.04mil

Now what??

Mulhback subtract 500k maybe less if vet min rule. Top 51 rule. Prater subtract 500k top 51 rule. In fact you can look at 2014. he got paid 980 but his cap number was only 685 due to vet min deduction rule. That's only 100k lost in space. Do the same for IAQ, Palmer, Hilliard, Collins. 500k total lost for getting 5 guys.

Johnson could be original tender. 1.3 million less 500k so 800 k in extra space lost.

You are not using the top 51 rule properly. You only need to account for extra space lost. Your problem is you are using their full cap hit when accounting for the change. You need to subtract 500k from each cap hit to get the true change.

7.2 in room would be enough for our vet free agents (including Mathis/Prater) with Suh franchised and even Fairley (or another free agent of their choosing). We could give someone a 5 year 30 million dollar deal like we did Tate. Tate's cap number was only 3.2 in 2014.

 

[LKP]

Here is the 2014 cap table so you can see how to properly account for players.

See Mathis, Dan O and Muhlbach in particular.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/detroit-lions/cap/2014/

Also like I said you account for the change.

15 under includes some jo-schmo futures deal as part of that number. You add in a guy like Collins. 700 k. But when you add in Collins, you take off joe-schmo 500k. It's only a 200k in lost space.

 

[tsmith7559]

Mulhback subtract 500k maybe less if vet min rule. Top 51 rule. Prater subtract 500k top 51 rule. In fact you can look at 2014. he got paid 980 but his cap number was only 685 due to vet min deduction rule. That's only 100k lost in space. Do the same for IAQ, Palmer, Hilliard, Collins. 500k total lost for getting 5 guys.

Johnson could be original tender. 1.3 million less 500k so 800 k in extra space lost.

You are not using the top 51 rule properly. You only need to account for extra space lost. Your problem is you are using their full cap hit when accounting for the change. You need to subtract 500k from each cap hit to get the true change.

7.2 in room would be enough for our vet free agents (including Mathis/Prater) with Suh franchised and even Fairley (or another free agent of their choosing). We could give someone a 5 year 30 million dollar deal like we did Tate. Tate's cap number was only 3.2 in 2014.

Prater won't qualify for vet min, he will get more than a 1 yr
I n the end we will have 53 players so 1 mill is appropriate as well as a 800,000 practice squad

Your 4.2 is pretty well gone, prater 1 mill, 2 roster spots 1 mil, ps 800,000, Johnson 800,000

 

[LKP]

Prater won't qualify for vet min, he will get more than a 1 yr
I n the end we will have 53 players so 1 mill is appropriate as well as a 800,000 practice squad

I didn't give Prater vet min. I gave him Hauschka deal. 1.7 total cap hit but 1.2 change in cap lost. So we lose 1.2 in extra current space to sign Prater.

7.2 million is plenty for all that incluing 1.8 million 53 (extra two 500k guys) and practice squad.

7.2-500K(IAQ,Hilliard, Palmer,Collins,backupQB)-800k (Johnson)-500k Mathis-1.8 top 53/PS=3.6 million in room (already accounts for draft). Room for Fairley with that (or a different free agent).

There are other options too. Make Bush a June 1st cut (when we need the money for top 53/PS). Restructure Calvin more than just 5 million base. salary.

 

[tsmith7559]

I didn't give Prater vet min. I gave him Hauschka deal. 1.7 total cap hit but 1.2 change in cap lost. So we lose 1.2 in extra current space to sign Prater.

7.2 million is plenty for all that incluing 1.8 million 53 (extra two 500k guys) and practice squad.

7.2-500K(IAQ,Hilliard, Palmer,Collins,backupQB)-800k (Johnson)-500k Mathis-1.8 top 53/PS=3.6 million in room (already accounts for draft). Room for Fairley with that (or a different free agent).

There are other options too. Make Bush a June 1st cut (when we need the money for top 53/PS). Restructure Calvin more than just 5 million base. salary.

For one year of Suh, really, you would do all this?

 

[LKP]

For one year of Suh, really, you would do all this?

A top 3 defense in 2015 and no future cap headaches (5.1 million is not a headache when you drop Tullloch/bush cap committments). You are committing less money and have more 2016 space than you started.

Yes I do this in a heartbeat for Suh.

It gives you two drafts to find a DT. Maybe one in each draft with two of the six day 1 (Round 1) and 2 (Round 2-3) picks.

 

[tsmith7559]

for what, we're not winning the super bowl, no free agents to be signed, don't care what scenario you paint, FoRd is paying out 20 mil to fit Suh 7nder AND pay him 27 mil.

The option is to trade him under the tag if he can't be signed, after all its been two offseasons trying to sign him, apparently he doesn't want to stay here unless it's something ridiclous

 

[LKP]

for what, we're not winning the super bowl, no free agents to be signed, don't care what scenario you paint, FoRd is paying out 20 mil to fit Suh 7nder AND pay him 27 mil.

The option is to trade him under the tag if he can't be signed, after all its been two offseasons trying to sign him, apparently he doesn't want to stay here unless it's something ridiclous

The good teams re-sign their own free agents. Who cares if we don't sign someone new. This team is good enough to win a Super Bowl with Suh and draft (left guard or tackle) and Mathis/Prater back and some development in the offense in year 2.

Would you realy be happy to lose Suh/Fairley and run a 3-4. It's less likely we have a top 3 defense. Alot less likely even if we have the LBs in Ansah, Van Noy, Levy, Tulloch, Whitehead, mabye Webster. I would snag Damon Harrison for nose tackle. Raji for DE. Hope Jones can the other DE or Ansah (depending if Whithead and Van Noy can rush, maybe Webster).

 

[tsmith7559]

The good teams re-sign their own free agents. Who cares if we don't sign someone new. This team is good enough to win a Super Bowl with Suh and draft (left guard or tackle) and Mathis/Prater back and some development in the offense in year 2.

Would you realy be happy to lose Suh/Fairley and run a 3-4. It's less likely we have a top 3 defense. Alot less likely even if we have the LBs in Ansah, Van Noy, Levy, Tulloch, Whitehead, mabye Webster. I would snag Damon Harrison for nose tackle. Raji for DE. Hope Jones can the other DE or Ansah (depending if Whithead and Van Noy can rush, maybe Webster).

Didn't say I wanted a 3-4, signing Fairley is doable, Iupati, It would be interesting to see what you could get for Suh, how about trade him to N Y G for the rights to JPP and a 2nd round pick, maybe more

 

[LKP]

Didn't say I wanted a 3-4, signing Fairley is doable, Iupati, It would be interesting to see what you could get for Suh, how about trade him to N Y G for the rights to JPP and a 2nd round pick, maybe more

Would need JPP signed long term and they would need Suh signed long term once both were franchised and given non-exclusive tag. There's big money given right there too. You are still franchising Suh to make that trade happen and that trade couldn't happen until March 10. So we would need to be compliant under the cap and have a deal work. Either way the restrucutres and cuts would happen.

If we can get a deal with JPP, we can get a deal with Suh. I'd rather have Suh. JPP has two really down years (2012/2013) and back issues.

And a Suh franchise he doesn't get 26.7 million on the day he signs. He's gets it over the course of September-December in game checks.