Cabrera vs Trout

[tycobb420]

Seems Trout will win MVP if Cab does not win the TC. A lot of talk centers on the WAR stat. This is an interesting debate. I really think Trout's real WAR is closer to 4-5 and Cab's is around 10-12 meaning.... I think the Tigers win 75 games without Cab...they definitely finished below .500. On the other hand, Anaheim still finishes above .500 without Trout. Could be wrong...but that is my guy feeling as opposed to a statistical breakdown.

 

[tigersofjustice]

Well that's convenient. The WAR difference went from Trout up about 2.5 wins to Miguel up like 7.

 

[Thumb]

I don't think the MVP hinges on either WAR or the Triple Crown.

And at this point, Cabrera is likely to make the playoffs while Trout will not, and historically, that's made more difference.

 

[Me]

Does WAR even go down when a player does something negative? Examples being strikeouts, double plays, critcal outs, errors, etc.

 

[pr0tege]

I don't think the MVP hinges on either WAR or the Triple Crown.

And at this point, Cabrera is likely to make the playoffs while Trout will not, and historically, that's made more difference.

Yeah I believe the bottom line at this point is the playoffs. If the Angels make a comeback and are able to get into the playoffs I don't think it will matter if Cabrera wins the TC or not considering all the freaking hype Trout is getting. IF they miss the playoffs though I think you HAVE to vote Cabrera the MVP again no matter the TC outcome with the Tigers in line for a playoff spot.

 

[tigersofjustice]

Does WAR even go down when a player does something negative? Examples being strikeouts, double plays, critcal outs, errors, etc.

If it is negative to the point of being below replacement it will. For example, an 0-5 performance is below replacement, which would cause negative WAR.

 

[tycobb420]

I am not sure WAR is calculated correctly to show a player's true impact.

 

[@Stakesarehigh]

Both teams would be no where near the playoffs without either player...the angels were in a tailspin until Trout was brought up...given detroit's lineup we all know how much a difference that would make.

It really all depends on what school of thought you come from...fifteen years ago miggy probably wins hands down...

I do feel if he gets the TC he HAS to be the MVP.

 

[tomdalton22]

I am not sure WAR is calculated correctly to show a player's true impact.

I think it is a little more accurate than you think.

 

[gotime909]

What exactly do they mean by "replacement"?

 

[sggatecl]

The problem I have with WAR is that it's contingent on that players position.

Trout's WAR means he's much better than other outfielders...not Miguel Cabrera.

For example, Buster Posey has the same WAR as Miguel Cabrera. Gonna tell me they're equal??

 

[tonyballs]

The problem I have with WAR is that it's contingent on that players position.

Trout's WAR means he's much better than other outfielders...not Miguel Cabrera.

For example, Buster Posey has the same WAR as Miguel Cabrera. Gonna tell me they're equal??

Exactlt! That WAR garbage is for numbers geeks. Cabby wins the MVP hands down

 

[Thumb]

Exactlt! That WAR garbage is for numbers geeks. Cabby wins the MVP hands down

People who who completely discount WAR are as dumb as the people who think it's some kind of tell-all stat.

 

[Mitchrapp]

There are better barometers than WAR imo. So I have no problem discounting it. Especially for MVP.

 

[Thumb]

There are better barometers than WAR imo. So I have no problem discounting it. Especially for MVP.

For MVP yes, because as explained, WAR does not compare between different positions and leagues.

You can use WAR to compare Omar Infante to Ramon Santiago, but not Omar Infante to Delmon Young.

WAR is a stat the same as any other, the problem is idiots like Keith Law don't understand it and just use it anyways.

 

[Mitchrapp]

For MVP yes, because as explained, WAR does not compare between different positions and leagues.

You can use WAR to compare Omar Infante to Ramon Santiago, but not Omar Infante to Delmon Young.

WAR is a stat the same as any other, the problem is idiots like Keith Law don't understand it and just use it anyways.

True, Law is a bonehead.

 

[Rebbiv]

"Wins Above Replacement, commonly known as WAR, is a non-standardized sabermetric baseball statistic that is used to show how many more wins a player would give a team as opposed to a "replacement level", or minor league/bench player at that position. While WAR values are scaled equally for pitchers and hitters, the result is calculated differently for pitchers versus position players: position players are evaluated using statistics for fielding and hitting, while pitchers are evaluated using statistics related to the opposing batters' hits, walks and strikeouts in Fangraph's version and runs allowed per 9 innings with a team defense adjustment for Baseball Reference's version.

There is no clearly established formula for WAR. Sites that provide the statistic, such as Baseball Prospectus, Fangraphs, and Baseball Reference, all calculate it differently; however, all of these sites calculate the value of WAR using these principles, and each site publicly acknowledges their methods for calculating their individual WAR values."

 

[Rebbiv]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/war_explained_comparison.shtml

http://www.fangraphs.com/library/index.php/misc/war/

WAR is calculated using positional adjustments and park adjustments. It does not discriminate between a Home Run hit in a tie game versus one hit in a blow out, meaning it is context neutral.


Now, WPA/LI takes in account the context of the plate appearance and is not adjusted for position.

Cabrera 5.8 WPA/LI 7.2 oWAR

Trout 5.6 WPA/LI 8.1 oWAR

**Baseball Reference stats


I used oWAR here because WPA/LI does not include defense. Cabrera leads the AL hitter in WPA/LI and Verlander leads the pitchers.


As mentioned, WAR is very much mis-represented stat and over-used. If you use it to compare one Centerfielder to another, that is one thing. However, it isn't a good across the board stat.

 

[byco42]

Here's an argument for Trout that does not account for a declaration of WAR.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/mike-trout-miguel-cabrera-and-measuring-value/

We should not discount people who disagree with us in the baseball realm as boneheads (Rob Parker excepted). These disagreements are the spice of baseball. Law is bringing a case to the table for Trout that is viable in many ways. With all these advanced stats, some might say that it's easier to declare an MVP. I say no. I say they seem to, when applied, automatically discount certain players from consideration. Apparently, according to this article, I conclude that until Cabrera gains the defensive skills of Brandon Inge and the base-stealing skills of Quintin Berry, he will never be eligible, and that's absurd.

 

[tomdalton22]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/war_explained_comparison.shtml

http://www.fangraphs.com/library/index.php/misc/war/

WAR is calculated using positional adjustments and park adjustments. It does not discriminate between a Home Run hit in a tie game versus one hit in a blow out, meaning it is context neutral.


Now, WPA/LI takes in account the context of the plate appearance and is not adjusted for position.

Cabrera 5.8 WPA/LI 7.2 oWAR

Trout 5.6 WPA/LI 8.1 oWAR

**Baseball Reference stats


I used oWAR here because WPA/LI does not include defense. Cabrera leads the AL hitter in WPA/LI and Verlander leads the pitchers.


As mentioned, WAR is very much mis-represented stat and over-used. If you use it to compare one Centerfielder to another, that is one thing. However, it isn't a good across the board stat.

But it is a good acorss the board stat. Put it this way....if Cabrera was a 2B and hit exactly like he does now. He would be even more valueable to the Tigers than he is if he was a 1B or 3B. Offensive players are easier to find at those positions. That's why with Trout's offensive numbers along with his great D in CF makes him so much better than his replacement....there just aren't any guys that play CF that are that good offensively. I don't think WAR should be the only thing that is considered but at least that stat takes into consideration the position the player is playing and the player's defense.