Coronainsanity

[tomdalton22]

A drug can work on one thing but not others.

And if the side effects are more tolerable than the illness it's approved for, it makes sense to approve it for more severe illnesses than others.

Like it might make sense to use a cancer drug that has a 1% chance of causing intestinal bleeding... if you're dying of cancer.

but using that same drug to treat a cold would be foolish.

and promoting a drug that has negative side effects when the benefits haven't been clinically proven is foolish.

using a drug that has had "mixed results" vs. nothing or drugs that have not produced positive results at all, seems to be reasonable.

It's pretty tough to have drugs clinically proven when this is a new disease...clinical trials take a very long time. The first death in the US was only about 38 days ago. Since that time over 11,000 people have died in the US alone.

 

[Michchamp]

using a drug that has had "mixed results" vs. nothing or drugs that have not produced positive results at all, seems to be reasonable.

It's pretty tough to have drugs clinically proven when this is a new disease...clinical trials take a very long time. The first death in the US was only about 38 days ago. Since that time over 11,000 people have died in the US alone.

Right. so no elected leader should be out pumping this as a proven, effective cure. especially when a HUGE conflict of interest exists, like in this case.

"the doctors can try it. they're trying everything. we're desperate. we still don't know what works."

Leave it at that.

 

[Spartanmack]

A drug can work on one thing but not others.

And if the side effects are more tolerable than the illness it's approved for, it makes sense to approve it for more severe illnesses than others.

Like it might make sense to use a cancer drug that has a 1% chance of causing intestinal bleeding... if you're dying of cancer.

but using that same drug to treat a cold would be foolish.

and promoting a drug that has negative side effects when the benefits haven't been clinically proven is foolish.

And when the person doing the promotion has a vested financial interest in it, well... we have different words for that.

This is not a "conspiracy theory." it hasn't been clinically proven to be effective. The fact that a lot of doctors are using it doesn't mean as much when you consider this is being done out of desperation... they're trying all sorts of things.

but Trump and his goons are promoting the one they stand to benefit financially from.

it is a conspiracy theory especially when you imply that it's just Trump and "his goons" that are promoting it. Since there isn't time to wait for clinical trials, doctors all over the world are using it and publishing their results and their opinions about it's effectiveness and so far, of all the treatments tested, it's by far the most preferred by medical professionals.

What's your recommended alternative? Do nothing until we've had time for clinical trials? I wonder what you would be saying if all these doctors from all over the world said they were having the most success treating this virus with hydroxycholoroquine but the Trump administration refused to allow it to be used in the US. I bet you'd be applauding him for being the adult in the room and waiting a few years for the results of clinical trials. That's probably what you would be posting right now.

 

[tomdalton22]

Right. so no elected leader should be out pumping this as a proven, effective cure. especially when a HUGE conflict of interest exists, like in this case.

"the doctors can try it. they're trying everything. we're desperate. we still don't know what works."

Leave it at that.

I agree with all of this except for the conflict of interest part. Trump isn't pumping up this because he can make a few bucks...he just opens his mouth too much because he's an idiot.

your comment would have been perfect. "the doctors can try it. they're trying everything. we're desperate. we still don't know what works."

 

[Spartanmack]

Right. so no elected leader should be out pumping this as a proven, effective cure. especially when a HUGE conflict of interest exists, like in this case.

"the doctors can try it. they're trying everything. we're desperate. we still don't know what works."

Leave it at that.

can you provide a quote for Trump saying it's a proven, effective cure?

 

[Spartanmack]

Chloroquine maker Novartis was paying Michael Cohen $100K a month to get "access" to Trump administration policies, from 2017-2018:

In exchange for paying Cohen $100,000 per month for over a year starting in February 2017, the company expected Trump’s lawyer to provide them with access to the president’s attitudes on health care policy, including provisions in the Affordable Care Act that were relevant to them.

The payments were officially made to Cohen’s shell company, Essential Consultants LLC, which collected a number of payments from other companies as well that sought the same privileges. (Through that company, Cohen also paid off adult film actress Stormy Daniels with “hush money” payments that were made to keep her quiet about an affair she had had with Trump years ago.)

The deal was a bad one for the company, Novartis later admitted. They believed Cohen would get them deeper insights on the president’s thinking than what he delivered — unfortunately for Novartis, they couldn’t back out of the agreement even after deciding, following one meeting with Cohen, that they didn’t need his services after all.

“As the contract, unfortunately, could only be terminated for cause, payments continued to be made until the contract expired by its own terms in February 2018,” the company said in a statement.​

Bad lawyering! An MSU law alum must've drafted that. they probably went around their UM-alum lawyer, when he insisted they include a right to terminate without cause, because Cohen was sleazy as hell. But because of that, they got taken for a ride by a chump like Cohen...

Of course this only proves they were looking to play the game, not that there was any financial interest over the more recent chloroquine scam. They obviously found better ways to get into the White House later on, when Cohen proved to be a dead end.

no, no, this probably means that the corona virus actually was developed in a lab by Novartis - wait, didn't you say Trump had a small personal financial interest in Sanofi? Ok, let me start over. The virus was developed through a joint effort between Sanofi and Novartis and then, after funnelling money (and a vile of the virus) from Cohen to Trump, Trump sent the US Military to a wet market in Wuhan China where it was planted on a live bat where it would then be transmitted to humans and quickly spread throughout the population globally. then Trump would talk up hydroxychloroquine on TV and Novartis, Sanofi, Trump and his goons would all get rich. This is all starting to make too much sense.

https://youtu.be/BdvUR67nZs0

I don't know why you're talking about uofm lawyers - you couldn't get into uofm law school - remember? You went to some 3rd tier program.

 

[Michchamp]

This whole chloroquine thing is another fine example of something being made into a political circle jerk when it shouldn't be. If Trump wouldn't have said it was beneficial, nobody would give a fuck.

People want to abuse it and/or take it incorrectly? Darwin be with them.

People want to use it without proper testing or trials? Darwin be with them.

People want to use it because their cult leader says it's the answer? Darwin be with them.

In the end, worst case scenario, people go down swinging in a way they elected to do so. Best case scenario, it works wonders (liberal nightmare realized) and people start getting healthy again. Let the chloroquine flow.

It's an approved medication for other illnesses, and people hoarding it because they think it's a proven cure for COVID-19 affect the supply for people who actually need it for something else. so that libertarian take "do this if you want" (as usual) ignores the fact that actions have consequences for more people than just the actor.

But you're right... Trump should keep his mouth shut.

 

[tomdalton22]

It's an approved medication for other illnesses, and people hoarding it because they think it's a proven cure for COVID-19 affect the supply for people who actually need it for something else. so that libertarian take "do this if you want" (as usual) ignores the fact that actions have consequences for more people than just the actor.

But you're right... Trump should keep his mouth shut.

I don't think the people in the United States diagnosed with Lupus or rheumatoid arthritis will die because of a shortage of Chloroquine. Now, Malaria is a much more dangerous disease. I read that about 400K people die worldwide from that every year. COVID-19 might reach 200K

 

[Spartanmack]

It's an approved medication for other illnesses, and people hoarding it because they think it's a proven cure for COVID-19 affect the supply for people who actually need it for something else. so that libertarian take "do this if you want" (as usual) ignores the fact that actions have consequences for more people than just the actor.

But you're right... Trump should keep his mouth shut.

who is hoarding it? you need a prescription to get it, it's not like you can just go to the local CVS and stock up on it. It's far more likely the case, based on the numbers, that supply is running low due to an unexpected spike in demand from a PANDEMIC. The evidence for hoarding is purely anecdotal, and it's being pushed by CNN, MSNBC and other outlets looking for a story line to make Trump look like a bad guy for talking about something any other president would be talking about if they were dealing with this.

It's not at all inappropriate for Trump to repeat what people in the medical community are saying about a promising treatment for a virus that the media has the world freaking out over.

 

[tinselwolverine]

who is hoarding it? you need a prescription to get it, it's not like you can just go to the local CVS and stock up on it. It's far more likely the case, based on the numbers, that supply is running low due to an unexpected spike in demand from a PANDEMIC. The evidence for hoarding is purely anecdotal, and it's being pushed by CNN, MSNBC and other outlets looking for a story line to make Trump look like a bad guy for talking about something any other president would be talking about if they were dealing with this.

It's not at all inappropriate for Trump to repeat what people in the medical community are saying about a promising treatment for a virus that the media has the world freaking out over.

No you’re wrong.

Two kids on bikes were selling the shit out front of a 7-11 - purely anecdotal that they were black.

I bought a bunch of the crap- I’m beginning to worry that I got had.

I’m afraid now it might be that fish poison that the MENSA couple that got on the news tried.

I don’t have symptoms so I’m thinking maybe I flush the crap.

Or maybe I’ll just sell it to some other chump.

 

[tinselwolverine]

It's an approved medication for other illnesses, and people hoarding it because they think it's a proven cure for COVID-19 affect the supply for people who actually need it for something else. so that libertarian take "do this if you want" (as usual) ignores the fact that actions have consequences for more people than just the actor.

But you're right... Trump should keep his mouth shut.

It?s not like toilet paper on the shelves at Kroger.

Every surgeon general of every state actually has discretion as to its distribution to prescribers throughout the medical communities.

At least one surgeon general prohibited it from being prescribed for the Covad - don?t know what the status of that is today.

Not a libertarian thing at all I say let?s let the medical community take the lead here.

 

[Spartanmack]

No you?re wrong.

Two kids on bikes were selling the shit out front of a 7-11 - purely anecdotal that they were black.

I bought a bunch of the crap- I?m beginning to worry that I got had.

I?m it might be that fish poison that the MENSA couple that got on the news tried.

I don?t have symptoms so I?m thinking maybe I flush the crap.

Or maybe I?ll just sell it to some other chump.

Is it in pill form or a liquid in a bottle with a picture of a fish or several fish in tank?

 

[tinselwolverine]

Is it in pill form or a liquid in a bottle with a picture of a fish or several fish in tank?

It?s a powder in a baggie.

There?s a sticker with a pic of the skull and crossbones on it.

At the time I bought that I just that was supposed to mean that it would kill the Kovad.

 

[tinselwolverine]

linky So anyway...if there IS hoarding going on - it would be within the medical community - and that shit should be pretty reprehensible.

So oversight needs to be done, which apparently is happening.

But if individual docs are having successes in individual cases, that should be taken into account.

How hard or easy is it to ramp up production?

We need to find that all out too.

 

[Spartanmack]

It?s a powder in a baggie.

There?s a sticker with a pic of the skull and crossbones on it.

At the time I bought that I just that was supposed to mean that it would kill the Kovad.

It?s probably ok then.

 

[Spartanmack]

linky So anyway...if there IS hoarding going on - it would be within the medical community - and that shit should be pretty reprehensible.

So oversight needs to be done, which apparently is happening.

But if individual docs are having successes in individual cases, that should be taken into account.

How hard or easy is it to ramp up production?

We need to find that all out too.

This is the same piece I read - and again, it's purely anecdotal. That's not to say it isn't happening but it's not at all clear it's having any real impact on supply. Also, the idea that it's Trump's fault that some doctors prescribed the drug for his/her family as a precaution is ridiculous. The media has the whole world freaking out about this virus and these people would have heard about hydroxychloroquine no matter what - from doctors using it, media covering the story, health officials, even a different President and other elected officials. In fact, if Obama mentioned it, the coverage in the press would be far more positive and these "hoarders" reaction would be exactly the same - except, rightly so, no one would be blaming Obama for it. Just think about it - the idea that medical professionals are hoarding medicine because of Trump and NOT because of what other actual medical professionals are saying is absurd. This is just another example of an attempt to spin literally everything Trump says or does into the worst possible thing anyone could say or do. It's utter nonsense.

 

[tinselwolverine]

This is the same piece I read - and again, it's purely anecdotal. That's not to say it isn't happening but it's not at all clear it's having any real impact on supply. Also, the idea that it's Trump's fault that some doctors prescribed the drug for his/her family as a precaution is ridiculous. The media has the whole world freaking out about this virus and these people would have heard about hydroxychloroquine no matter what - from doctors using it, media covering the story, health officials, even a different President and other elected officials. In fact, if Obama mentioned it, the coverage in the press would be far more positive and these "hoarders" reaction would be exactly the same - except, rightly so, no one would be blaming Obama for it. Just think about it - the idea that medical professionals are hoarding medicine because of Trump and NOT because of what other actual medical professionals are saying is absurd. This is just another example of an attempt to spin literally everything Trump says or does into the worst possible thing anyone could say or do. It's utter nonsense.

So what you’re saying is doctors would have known about the medication hydroxychloroquine anyway?

That actually makes sense.

CVS seemed to indicate that supply lines are currently okay.

So keep an eye on that as docs potentially ramp up use to see if that becomes a problem.

EDIT: I posted a link on #168 of this thread about a local doc here in LA who seems to be doing it the right way. Rather than me explain it here, go back to the link. Not that it means much but I’ve been familiar with his Urgent Care clinics for some time.

The FDA has approved the medication as an emergency remedy, and I’m hearing in the news that New York governor Andrew Cuomo has approved its use in hospitalization situations.

If it’s true that medical professionals are actually hoarding the medication to the degree that supply becomes a problem shame on them, and let’s address that.

Let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater here.

 

[byco42]

CDC Estimated Numbers: October, 2019 to March 28, 2020

Illnesses: 39 to 55 million (11,926/100,000) (low numbers factored) [EDITED]
Medical visits: 18 to 26 million (5,504/100,000)
Hospitalizations: 400 to 730 thousand (122/100,000)
Deaths: 24 to 65 thousand (7.33/100,000) [EDITED]

This is for influenza, and these numbers have been constant for years.

COVID-19: January 20, 2020 to March 28, 2020
Illnesses: 374,329 (114/100,000)
Hospitalizations: 4.6/100,000 (COVID.NET ... not all of US is included, only 10% of population, NYC is 7.6/100,000)
Deaths: 12,064 (3.68/100,000)

What stands out to me is the ratio of illnesses to deaths with COVID vs. flu.

COVID = 3%
FLU = .06% (EDIT]

Also the CDC's directives on completing death certificates is "interesting" LINKO

"In cases where a definite diagnosis of COVID–19 cannot
be made, but it is suspected or likely (e.g., the circumstances
are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty), it
is acceptable to report COVID–19 on a death certificate as
“probable” or “presumed.” In these instances, certifiers should
use their best clinical judgement in determining if a COVID–19
infection was likely. However, please note that testing for
COVID–19 should be conducted whenever possible."​

If you are relying on the major media to report this event objectively, you are delusional. Be your own journalists on this one.

 

[tinselwolverine]

"In cases where a definite diagnosis of COVID?19 cannot
be made, but it is suspected or likely (e.g., the circumstances
are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty), it
is acceptable to report COVID?19 on a death certificate as
?probable? or ?presumed.? In these instances, certifiers should
use their best clinical judgement in determining if a COVID?19
infection was likely. However, please note that testing for
COVID?19 should be conducted whenever possible."​

Wow.

Kind of makes the NCAA tournament selection committee seem completely objective, and harnessed to quantifiable data.

 

[byco42]

Wow.

Kind of makes the NCAA tournament selection committee seem completely objective, and harnessed to quantifiable data.

And the media is not reviewing each DC, that's for sure. They want all the death-#s they can get. It's what sells.