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Coronainsanity

They have been telling us ? the ubiquitous they - that masks protect both transmissions and being infection of the wearer of the mask. Well the study a linked to demonstrates, through using scientific methodology, that in fact masks are not effective in stopping the transmission to the mask wearer.

Can you link to a study that demonstrates through scientific methodology that in fact wearing the mask is helpful in preventing transmission from the mask wearer? I haven?t seen one.

I?ve just heard the same bullshit from political leaders primarily governor Newsom and Mayor Garcetti, neither of whom is a scientist.


What's the exact caveat that renders existing research worthless? There are limits to what types of tests we are willing to conduct. If you want a test that involves intentionally putting people at risk, then no. We probably don't have that one.





https://www.researchgate.net/profil...del-for-Coronavirus-Disease-2019-COVID-19.pdf



https://www.sciencedirect.com/scien...Bdkdc2bAN02AIyO1KdNfWu66-aTBiGW_ykDl8bRn9laZE


https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/irv.12740


https://www.sciencedirect.com/scien...fN4sFtbfgaZCdVKpO4vCsnVbresBZG4WU62Nkyrro-nIM
 
Let me start with some of the present problems that even mask mandates will not solve.

1. Many people are not even wearing CDC-recommended masks. The paper kind are not effective in containing droplets.
2. Many people who wear masks think they are safe from infection and get inside the 6-foot circle (see #1)
3. Our officials do not practice what they are preaching and exact arbitrary locations, people counts and time to associate and the COVID #s keep rising -- some make exceptions and even violate their own mandates -- so how seriously should we take them -- or these measures designed to stop the spread?
4. There are athletic events in play that violate EVERY SINGLE MANDATE these same officials are imposing on the rest of us in regards to distancing and mask wearing
5. Yet we are being told to wear masks indoors and outdoors when "the six-foot distance is 'difficult' to maintain."

So the "right" way to suggest that people wear masks is to treat them like the sovereign individuals they are rather than subjects who need direction. Acknowledge that this is a highly irregular situation and extraordinary measures are required. It's a bespoke circumstance. But, to our elected officials, it's not. It's an opportunity to flaunt arbitrary authority, and it sets a precedent.

And, ultimately, we are all responsible for our own well-being and we are obligated to not jeopardize that of others. I've never heard that language from any elected official. I can relate to that, but not to "we are all in this together." We're not because THEY are NOT with US. They are a class unto themselves.


1) not AS effective. They still help.
2) I see this as another good argument for clear messaging from the top. People left to their own devices without clear messaging yields poor decisions. Sovereign individuals have not shown good judgement.

3) No argument there. Too bad we only want to hold them accountable if they're on the 'other team'
4) I'd be ok with not playing sports for now, but I've got to be honest. The pros seem to be able to make the bubble strategy work better than I had expected.
5) This sounds more to me like a another call for better messaging.
 
What's the exact caveat that renders existing research worthless? There are limits to what types of tests we are willing to conduct. If you want a test that involves intentionally putting people at risk, then no. We probably don't have that one.





https://www.researchgate.net/profil...del-for-Coronavirus-Disease-2019-COVID-19.pdf



https://www.sciencedirect.com/scien...Bdkdc2bAN02AIyO1KdNfWu66-aTBiGW_ykDl8bRn9laZE


https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/irv.12740


https://www.sciencedirect.com/scien...fN4sFtbfgaZCdVKpO4vCsnVbresBZG4WU62Nkyrro-nIM

I think they have done studies on comparative exhalations that have shown that mask wearing in fact, breaks the particles into smaller and even more transmittable particles.
 
Is that how you feel about it?

Why would I have feelings about data?

I’ll see if I can find a study that concluded or hypothesized that.

EDIT: The meantime, as I look for things online, the various organizations that claim that masks are effective concede that, of course, masks are only effective when combined with the various other strategies - social distancing, proper hygiene, staying home when feeling ill, etc - not entirely unlike what you guys have been saying in posts about the Danish study.

Okay.

I am remembering an episode of the Beverly Hillbillies I saw when I was a wee lad.

The subject was about the efficacy of “granny’s fabled and legendary cold cure.”

The Clampet clan all insisted that it cured a cold like there’s no tomorrow, Mr. Drysdale and Miss Jayne were skeptical.

Now as you all may recall, granny was an irascible one, and didn’t take very kindly to folks questioning the effectiveness of her cold cure.

A lot of the humor of the episode came from that.

Finally, Mr. Drysdale and Miss Jane capitulate and agree that the cold cure must indeed be effective.

And the episode ends with granny explaining the secrets that make her cure so effective:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p8rOKw1FTX0
 
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I think they have done studies on comparative exhalations that have shown that mask wearing in fact, breaks the particles into smaller and even more transmittable particles.


That's seems really unlikely to me. The physics can be surprising, maybe with a sneeze? Either way, smaller particles can go farther, but they're also closer to evaporating and desiccating the virus. The viral load is less in smaller particles too. So even if true, I'm not sure it's worse.
 
That's seems really unlikely to me. The physics can be surprising, maybe with a sneeze? Either way, smaller particles can go farther, but they're also closer to evaporating and desiccating the virus. The viral load is less in smaller particles too. So even if true, I'm not sure it's worse.

Okay.

I can?t find the study anyway; maybe I just heard some right wing hack on talk radio making it up.
 
Okay.

I can?t find the study anyway; maybe I just heard some right wing hack on talk radio making it up.


I'm open to the idea, but most of the time at smaller scales, water acts more like molasses, aggressively sticking to itself. If it's really high velocity, or maybe if the mask fibers are hydrophobic that would change things. There are a lot of devil in the details elements to all this. I've heard (podcast) that a lot of earlyish assumptions were based on flu transmission, where how contagious people are is more even across the population, but what this has that flu doesn't is a significant number of superspreaders. A small percentage of people that shed gobs of virus infecting lots of people around them.
 
1) not AS effective. They still help.
CDC does not recommend paper masks, and goes so far as to discourage their use. Link Paper masks are not even an option now.

2) I see this as another good argument for clear messaging from the top. People left to their own devices without clear messaging yields poor decisions. Sovereign individuals have not shown good judgement.
?The top?. We?re the ?bottom.? I see it as an opportunity for ME to remind THEM to stay the F away from me, and I do. (But far more charitably) I don?t need ?the top? to instruct me on how to behave in public, pandemic or no.

5) This sounds more to me like a another call for better messaging.
I won?t hold my breath. It will only get more shrill and strident. With citations and fines. And when people refuse the vaccine, it will be very difficult for them to participate in society.
 
CDC does not recommend paper masks, and goes so far as to discourage their use. Link Paper masks are not even an option now.

?The top?. We?re the ?bottom.? I see it as an opportunity for ME to remind THEM to stay the F away from me, and I do. (But far more charitably) I don?t need ?the top? to instruct me on how to behave in public, pandemic or no.


I won?t hold my breath. It will only get more shrill and strident. With citations and fines. And when people refuse the vaccine, it will be very difficult for them to participate in society.


Maybe I'm not being nit picky enough, but I assumed you meant those cheap little rectangular blue surgical masks when you said 'paper mask'. They may not look it, but they are 3-ply, and designed for catching droplets. I don't know what you mean by paper mask. I haven't seen a literal paper mask to my knowledge.
 
From wikipedia:
280px-Surgical_face_mask.jpg

The design of the surgical masks depends on the mode; usually, the masks are three-ply (three layers). This three-ply material is made up of a melt-blown polymer, most commonly polypropylene, placed between non-woven fabric.[32] The melt-blown material acts as the filter that stops microbes from entering or exiting the mask.[32] Pleats are commonly used to allow the user to expand the mask such that it covers the area from the nose to the chin. The masks are secured to the head with ear loops, head ties, or elastic straps.[33]
Physical properties of surgical masks Parameter Typical unit Pressure differential, ∆P cm of H2O / cm2 Filtration and exposure % Liquid penetration resistance mbar Air permeability ml/s⋅cm2 at 100 Pa Water vapor permeability g/24 hr⋅cm2 Water repellency grade Filter material in the middle layer may be made of microfibers with an electrostatic charge; that is, the fibers are electrets. An electret filter increases the chances that smaller particles will veer and hit a fiber, rather than going straight through (electrostatic capture).[34][35][36][better source needed][medical citation needed] While there is some development work on making electret filtering materials that can stand being washed and reused,[37] current commercially produced electret filters are ruined by many forms of disinfection, including washing with soap and water or alcohol, which destroys the electric charge.[38] During the COVID-19 pandemic, public health authorities issued guidelines on how to save, disinfect and reuse electret-filter masks without damaging the filtration efficiency.[39][38] Standard disposible surgical masks are not designed to be washed.
 
Most likely.

If I?m remembering correctly, of the Clampet clan, Granny, Ellie Mae and Jethro addressed Jane Hathaway as ?Miss Jane.? Jed would address her as ?Miss Hathaway.? Mr. Drysdale would also address her in that manner.

I don?t remember anyone ever calling Mr. Drysdale by his first name, Milburn. I don?t remember it happening, even one time.
 
CDC does not recommend paper masks, and goes so far as to discourage their use. Link Paper masks are not even an option now.


Okay, you keep saying this, and even provide a link...that says absolutely nothing at all about paper masks, let alone discouraging their use. I see no to vinyl masks, vented masks and N95 (save for healthcare workers) but nothing about paper masks.

Unless....the deep state infiltrated my computer/web browser and is blocking that portion of the cdc website.
 
Maybe I'm not being nit picky enough, but I assumed you meant those cheap little rectangular blue surgical masks when you said 'paper mask'. They may not look it, but they are 3-ply, and designed for catching droplets. I don't know what you mean by paper mask. I haven't seen a literal paper mask to my knowledge.

Three ply?

I don’t know what that says for catching droplets, but it sounds they’d sure be comfortable for use “down below,” if ya get my drift - not gonna spell it out.

I mean, they’re supposed be used just the once as a face covering - doesn’t mean they have to completely go to waste afterward.

They could go to waste management.
 
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If I?m remembering correctly, of the Clampet clan, Granny, Ellie Mae and Jethro addressed Jane Hathaway as ?Miss Jane.? Jed would address her as ?Miss Hathaway.? Mr. Drysdale would also address her in that manner.

I don?t remember anyone ever calling Mr. Drysdale by his first name, Milburn. I don?t remember it happening, even one time.

Wasn?t his wife on the show from time to time and didn?t she call him Milburn? I was never that into the show, I watched it because of Ellie May Clampett, but seem to recall that happening. Or at least I feel like it did.
 
Three ply?

I don’t know what that says for catching droplets, but it sounds they’d sure be comfortable for use “down below,” if ya get my drift - not gonna spell it out.

I mean, they’re supposed be used just the once as a face covering - doesn’t mean they have to completely go to waste afterward.

They could go to waste management.

I wouldn’t recommend it. The plys don’t seem particularly soft so you’ll likely be disappointed plus they’ll probably cause all kinds of problems with your plumbing before they make it to a waste water treatment facility.

Although preppers are starting to hoard again so maybe don’t trash them yet - desperate times...
 
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Three ply?

I don?t know what that says for catching droplets, but it sounds they?d sure be comfortable for use ?down below,? if ya get my drift - not gonna spell it out.

I mean, they?re supposed be used just the once as a face covering - doesn?t mean they have to completely go to waste afterward.

They could go to waste management.

I?m too lazy to find one of your quotes about California and your governor but you should consider moving to Ventura County. The Sheriff there tweeted that they will not be enforcing Gavin?s curfew. I?m also too lazy to figure out how to post a tweet here but that same tweet also encourage VC residents to follow reasonable precautions to avoid getting/spreading coronavirus.
 
I?m too lazy to find one of your quotes about California and your governor but you should consider moving to Ventura County. The Sheriff there tweeted that they will not be enforcing Gavin?s curfew. I?m also too lazy to figure out how to post a tweet here but that same tweet also encourage VC residents to follow reasonable precautions to avoid getting/spreading coronavirus.

Thanks.

If I?m moving I?m moving to Vegas.

That?s different from most CA Sheriffs, whose opinion is that it appears that, since J?Biden apparently is going to be elected and certified to president at noon EST on Jan 20, crime as we have come to understand it will cease, and law enforcement will be able to focus its attention on the all important battle against Covid.

Okay that?s not true at all.

Here, from possibly the last bastion of sanity (the Sheriffs, not the LA Times} left at the west end of the earth.
 
Three ply?

I don’t know what that says for catching droplets, but it sounds they’d sure be comfortable for use “down below,” if ya get my drift - not gonna spell it out.

I mean, they’re supposed be used just the once as a face covering - doesn’t mean they have to completely go to waste afterward.

They could go to waste management.


edit: I second the clogged pipe expectation.

I'm all for reduce, reuse, recycle, but I think you're proposing clogged pipes all over the city.
 
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