Ferguson, MO

[Monster]

See, now you're just being dumb.

I have said none of that at all, but...facts are facts because they have been proven. The rest is all alleged. It's quite possible, and even likely it happened exactly that way, but there is zero evidence that Brown tried to grab Wilsons gun, or that Brown punched Wilson so hard he almost knocked him out, other than Wilson's statement.

If you, or anyone bothered to read what I have posted in this thread you would see I never really picked a side at all here. Just pointing out what many call "facts" or "evidence" is not, and that I believe this was something for a jury to decide.

It is kind of funny though the why you sarcastically posted that last bit in caps, because you're exactly the same way just 180 degree removed. You see Brown as a thug, and that made up your mind.

Disagree. Even thugs don't deserve to be killed. Up until the confrontation, he deserved to go to jail. He deserved death the minute he fought with and went for the gun.

Medical examiners and physical evidence all show that Wilson had been hit several times and that the gun went off inside the car during the fight. I don't see how anyone can call that alleged. It's been proven that it happened.

This Garner guy may have been a thug (I doubt it from the video) but he didn't fight those cops and he didn't throw punches. If police had acted appropriately, he probably would have sat in jail for a few hours and had a fine to pay. But the officers never gave him a chance.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Disagree. Even thugs don't deserve to be killed. Up until the confrontation, he deserved to go to jail. He deserved death the minute he fought with and went for the gun.

He never deserved death. The cop had to defend himself when he felt he was in danger of physical harm. It might seem like a subtle difference, but I think it matters.

 

[Michchamp]

It's getting ridiculous that people are accepting that Brown fought with Darrel Wilson and tried to grab his gun.

Is there any evidence to support this, other than Wilson's own disputed account?

I'd like to read it, because I haven't seen anything about that. Nor did I see any confirmation that Wilson knew - at any point in the confrontation - that Brown was a suspect in the earlier strong arm robbery, or that a robbery had even occured, and the chief of the Ferguson PD even admitted as much.

 

[Michchamp]

For the record, I'm surprised the New York cops were not sent to a Grand Jury trial. ...

there is no such thing.

grand juries are used to investigate evidence and determine whether someone should be tried or not. they are not a trial in and of themselves.

The investigative powers of DA's are broader in a grand jury; witnesses can be compelled to testify during a grand jury & put in jail for contempt if they refuse. also, since it's not a formal criminal proceding, those called often aren't provided an attorney, and can't have an attorney present (I think, though that may depend on the jurisdiction) to object to any questions from the DA.

Grand juries are controversial for these reasons; and in the cop cases recently they're controversial for another reason: when a regular old citizen is the target of a grand jury investigation, they're indicted something like >90% of the time. It's so one-sided, former NY judge Sol Wachtler famously coined the phrase that a grand jury "could indict a ham sandwich." Yet when police officers are the target of grand jury investigations, the opposite occurs. In such instances, the grand jury is usually used to whitewash the incident, provide the prosecutor PR cover for failing to charge the police... those same broad powers the prosecutor has I referred to in the first paragraph are turned upside down to PROTECT the target of the grand jury, not to return an indictment. indeed, in the Ferguson case, there were reports the DA acted more like Darrel Wilson's own defense attorney than a prosecutor.

so... you see... yeah. it's screwed up. The justice system is often more about preserving the appearance of justice, than "justice" itself, in the conventional sense of the word.

 

[Spartanmack]

I'm not quite sure how you can watch that video and not say that the officer deserved to be charged with something. IMO that is a manslaughter charge or at least some form of negligent homicide.

The deceased 'resisting' wouldn't amount to a crime itself in the state of Michigan in many courts around these parts.

The man was grabbed and choked with his hands out in a 'give up' position. And yes he was choked, that much is clear by how he died. There was almost no justification for the use of any force let alone that much force.

By the way I cannot find the original video on youtube anymore. I was going to post it for anyone who hasn't seen it. Every video there now seems to be news reports with small clips of it.

Resisting arrest is a crime in Michigan. People get charged with it all the time. Look it up. And it's clear from the autopsy report that he was NOT choked but what difference does a medical examiner's report make? You've seen a video - one that shows he wasn't in a choke hold.

 

[Gulo Blue]

It's getting ridiculous that people are accepting that Brown fought with Darrel Wilson and tried to grab his gun.

Is there any evidence to support this, other than Wilson's own disputed account?

While the pictures didn't show much, the examining doctor said he had a facial contusion...so he was hit in the face at some point.

Brown's blood was found on the interior left front door handle.

That doesn't say anything about going for the gun, but it points to the fighting at the car. Either way, seems like the kind of thing you get experts to weigh in on in a trail.

 

[Gulo Blue]

The blood spots and casings suggest Brown came back towards Wilson at least 22 feet. To me, the casings (as drawn here, which might not be to scale) even suggest Wilson was retreating as he was firing, but I don't know if that's part of the story.

 

[Spartanmack]

Dude, he's part of the group that believes that is made up and gives credibility to discredited witnesses and drown out the rest. I'm done with the Brown debate unless something new happens. Its completely out of control.

agreed. So much willful ignorance if not flat out denial of the facts, it's astonishing and it renders the debate pointless.

 

[Gulo Blue]

What does the original sign say? Just curious. ..

 

[Spartanmack]

The issue I continue to have is less that they took him down (though I don't believe cops need to throw people to the ground to put cuffs on, seems to me they could have managed the situation better and cuffed him while standing). My issue is more that they delayed in getting him medical help. The moment he said he was having trouble breathing is the latest point they should have continued their physical restraints. If he somehow escaped as a result, I'm pretty sure he wasn't getting far. Very poor judgment there by the officers. Then the continued delay in contacting dispatch for an immediate medical assist... anyone in Garner's situation deserved more respect and the officers failed him as a human being.

I agree with a lot of that but he was resisting - you hear him several times saying he's not going to comply. I don't know that the takedown rises to the level of excessive force - I believe the cops first choice to protect themselves is to take a noncompliant suspect to the ground. I agree and sincerely wish they would have gotten him medical attention sooner - I'm sure cops hear suspect complaints like "I can't breathe" or "cuffs are too tight" all the time and have become desensitized to them. I'm not saying that to excuse them and they may have been negligent. Was it criminal negligence? That's hard to say but I don't think the force was excessive or that there was any intent to harm him.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Robbed the store, fought with cop, tried to grab cops gun, ran approximately 100', turned to face police officer who remained close to car, Brown moved TOWARD cop despite orders to stop and shots fired prior to kill shot which happened no more than 10' from the cop. Hands up or not, moving toward a cop in defiance of orders to stop in that situation will get you shot at and still continuing toward the cop SHOULD result in your death as you are presenting yourself as a threat to the cop.

Why is this so difficult to grasp?

I don't think Wilson stayed close to the car.

 

[Gulo Blue]

It say...

Gulo...you a fuck.

I SAY...you a fuck.

And when I say...you a fuck...

You a fuck.

Just imagine I photoshopped all that onto that sign.

 

[Spartanmack]

It's getting ridiculous that people are accepting that Brown fought with Darrel Wilson and tried to grab his gun.

Is there any evidence to support this, other than Wilson's own disputed account?

I'd like to read it, because I haven't seen anything about that. Nor did I see any confirmation that Wilson knew - at any point in the confrontation - that Brown was a suspect in the earlier strong arm robbery, or that a robbery had even occured, and the chief of the Ferguson PD even admitted as much.

While the pictures didn't show much, the examining doctor said he had a facial contusion...so he was hit in the face at some point.

Brown's blood was found on the interior left front door handle.

That doesn't say anything about going for the gun, but it points to the fighting at the car. Either way, seems like the kind of thing you get experts to weigh in on in a trail.

This article indicates there is more evidence to support Wilson's assertion that Brown was reaching for his gun http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_e98a4ce0-c284-57c9-9882-3fb7df75fef6.html

It states:

"The report on a supplemental microscopic exam of tissue from the thumb wound showed foreign matter “consistent with products that are discharged from the barrel of a firearm.”

Dr. Judy Melinek, a forensic pathologist in San Francisco, said the autopsy “supports the fact that this guy is reaching for the gun, if he has gunpowder particulate material in the wound.” She added, “If he has his hand near the gun when it goes off, he’s going for the officer’s gun.”

Sources told the Post-Dispatch that Brown’s blood had been found on Wilson’s gun."

 

[mhughes0021]

It say...

Gulo...you a fuck.

I SAY...you a fuck.

And when I say...you a fuck...

You a fuck.

man...they really did a bang up photoshop job. I couldn't even tell it used to say that. Wonder what font they use to photoshop that.

 

[Michchamp]

The blood spots and casings suggest Brown came back towards Wilson at least 22 feet. To me, the casings (as drawn here, which might not be to scale) even suggest Wilson was retreating as he was firing, but I don't know if that's part of the story.

Okay. Interesting.

I know this was disputed by other witness statements, which may or may not be more credible. I would like to see all the testimony that was recorded in the grand jury.

Of course, if Brown went up to the cop car, attacked him, tried to grab his gun, and then was shot dead... I don't think the officer should be charged with a crime.

Though, if that was the case, WTF did it take them forever to get this story out? That's another question I have. They sure ran a lot of things through PR first, and took a tortured period of time to get this out.

As I said in an earlier post, the DA here could hardly be considered an impartial party. The governor should have called for a special prosecutor from outside the area to conduct the grand jury hearings, or the Feds should've done it.

This article indicates there is evidence more evidence to support Wilson's assertion that Brown was reaching for his gun http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_e98a4ce0-c284-57c9-9882-3fb7df75fef6.html

It states:

"The report on a supplemental microscopic exam of tissue from the thumb wound showed foreign matter ?consistent with products that are discharged from the barrel of a firearm.?

Dr. Judy Melinek, a forensic pathologist in San Francisco, said the autopsy ?supports the fact that this guy is reaching for the gun, if he has gunpowder particulate material in the wound.? She added, ?If he has his hand near the gun when it goes off, he?s going for the officer?s gun.?

Sources told the Post-Dispatch that Brown?s blood had been found on Wilson?s gun."

From your link:

Editor's note:
In an article that appeared last week on stltoday.com, Dr. Judy Melinek, a forensic pathologist, was quoted as saying that the position of a right-thumb wound and gunpowder residue cited in the county autopsy of Michael Brown ?supports the fact that this guy is reaching for the gun, if he has gunpowder particulate material in the wound. If he has his hand near the gun when it goes off, he?s going for the officer?s gun.?
Melinek has since sought to qualify those comments, saying that the autopsy report supports Officer Darren Wilson?s statement that Brown was reaching for the gun but that other scenarios are possible.
​

 

[Spartanmack]

man...they really did a bang up photoshop job. I couldn't even tell it used to say that. Wonder what font they use to photoshop that.

I think it's called Thug Graffiti

 

[mhughes0021]

race aside. If the allegations are true. Anyone that reaches into a cops car or continues to go toward a cop after hes told to stop should be shot....probably several times. They have a right to defend themselves and eliminate any threat of danger. I don't care if your hands are up....if youre too dumb to not follow a simple direction like "stop" then I don't know what to tell you and the cop was right in his actions. Again...that's IF the allegations are true.

 

[mhughes0021]

the "we the people" sign makes me laugh more than the photoshopped one. Not sure why....I think because its a wrestling reference. Like is that guy just a wrestling fan that took his sign from his recent WWE event and ran out to picket.

 

[Michchamp]

race aside. If the allegations are true. Anyone that reaches into a cops car or continues to go toward a cop after hes told to stop should be shot....probably several times. They have a right to defend themselves and eliminate any threat of danger. I don't care if your hands are up....if youre too dumb to not follow a simple direction like "stop" then I don't know what to tell you and the cop was right in his actions. Again...that's IF the allegations are true.

I think everyone here agrees with this, although, cops should still be held to the "reasonable person" standard of when they can perceive themselves to be in danger... they shoot people too damn often, and are rarely held accountable for their trigger happiness.

 

[Michchamp]

the "we the people" sign makes me laugh more than the photoshopped one. Not sure why....I think because its a wrestling reference. Like is that guy just a wrestling fan that took his sign from his recent WWE event and ran out to picket.

I think it's a reference to this:

... but then again, I don't watch pro wrestling.