Ferguson, MO

[tomdalton22]

lol...white privilege?

 

[tinselwolverine]

lol...white privilege?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yTviWE3hq1Y

 

[tomdalton22]

Another unarmed black man shot and killed in Columbus Oh. These shit bag police officers are such racist assholes. See a black guy, shoot first, ask questions later.

https://6abc.com/andre-hill-police-shooting-adam-coy-columbus-ohio-killed/9138603/


Of course, this guy looks more white than I do. But the media's lead, "another unarmed black man shot and killed by police".

 

[Michchamp]

Another unarmed black man shot and killed in Columbus Oh. These shit bag police officers are such racist assholes. See a black guy, shoot first, ask questions later.

https://6abc.com/andre-hill-police-shooting-adam-coy-columbus-ohio-killed/9138603/


Of course, this guy looks more white than I do. But the media's lead, "another unarmed black man shot and killed by police".

It's possible that police most often (or often enough) are racist assholes, and also assholes in general that kill too readily, regardless of the race of their victims, right? Those aren't contradictory.

There has been quite a bit of ink spilled over this, and how the FBI and what not won't keep national statistics on the rates of Americans killed by police, meaning the numbers activists compile are likely an undercount, but even as an undercount, the numbers of Americans killed by police put us way out of the league of other developed countries.

one keeps seeing these sort of statistics... like % of population incarcerated, % of population w/out healthcare, per capita police killings, deaths by COVID-19/1,000,000, deaths due to suicide, deaths due to overdoses, etc. and you start to wonder if we're still a developed country...

 

[Spartanmack]

Finally, evidence of institutionalized, systemic racism:

“Our priority will be Black, Latino, Asian, and Native American owned small businesses, women-owned businesses...” - Joe Biden

I take back everything I said about racism in America.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Finally, evidence of institutionalized, systemic racism:

?Our priority will be Black, Latino, Asian, and Native American owned small businesses, women-owned businesses...? - Joe Biden

I take back everything I said about racism in America.

There's no way on Earth you should forget about this thread, but it seems you need this again:
http://detroitsportsforum.com/showthread.php?t=23899

 

[Michchamp]

Finally, evidence of institutionalized, systemic racism:

?Our priority will be Black, Latino, Asian, and Native American owned small businesses, women-owned businesses...? - Joe Biden

I take back everything I said about racism in America.

the link's not working.

 

[Michchamp]

Finally, evidence of institutionalized, systemic racism:

?Our priority will be Black, Latino, Asian, and Native American owned small businesses, women-owned businesses...? - Joe Biden

I take back everything I said about racism in America.

I think such a policy is wrong, and is just more neo-liberal bullshit, intentionally misguided so as to allow the Biden administration to pretend they're helping people, while not actually helping anyone other than a handful of small-business owners, & ignoring women, blacks, latinos, asians and Native Americans who are workers and have no inclination or means to start businesses, AKA the vast majority of all those people.



And also, a lot of the money earmarked for the policy will still find it's way into the hands of wealthy people of all races - white included - who start find women or non-white people to front businesses to get these contracts, but direct all the profits elsewhere.


I also think his statement of intent does not prove anything about racism in America either way, but you think it does because you're not a very logical person.

 

[Spartanmack]

There's no way on Earth you should forget about this thread, but it seems you need this again:
http://detroitsportsforum.com/showthread.php?t=23899

Don't need it. I have never denied that bias exists. It's not at all the same thing as systemic or institutionalized racism. And like i've said on here before (probably in that thread), the way you combat racism (and bias) is to treat people equally, not by discriminating against people based on immutable characteristics.

 

[Spartanmack]

I think such a policy is wrong, and is just more neo-liberal bullshit, intentionally misguided so as to allow the Biden administration to pretend they're helping people, while not actually helping anyone other than a handful of small-business owners, & ignoring women, blacks, latinos, asians and Native Americans who are workers and have no inclination or means to start businesses, AKA the vast majority of all those people.



And also, a lot of the money earmarked for the policy will still find it's way into the hands of wealthy people of all races - white included - who start find women or non-white people to front businesses to get these contracts, but direct all the profits elsewhere.


I also think his statement of intent does not prove anything about racism in America either way, but you think it does because you're not a very logical person.

I don't think it proves anything about racism in America and I don't know how you could make that point - other than you're not a very bright person. The sarcasm was pretty obvious.

I do think it is racist/discriminatory for the government to use race or gender as a test for allocating resources - that just makes Joe Biden and the people who came up with that idea or policy racist - I'm not about to impugn the entire country based on some partisan racist pandering.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Don't need it. I have never denied that bias exists. It's not at all the same thing as systemic or institutionalized racism. And like i've said on here before (probably in that thread), the way you combat racism (and bias) is to treat people equally, not by discriminating against people based on immutable characteristics.

That answer shows that you do need it. Once it is known by the leadership of the system or institution to be an discriminatory outcome of of the system or institution's operations, and nothing that could reasonably be done ('reasonable' being an effort proportional to the discrimination outcome) then it is systemic or institutionalized.

 

[Spartanmack]

That answer shows that you do need it. Once it is known by the leadership of the system or institution to be an discriminatory outcome of of the system or institution's operations, and nothing that could reasonably be done ('reasonable' being an effort proportional to the discrimination outcome) then it is systemic or institutionalized.

No, it doesn't. I'm all for reasonable efforts to mitigate bias. Discriminating against people based on their skin color or gender is not "reasonable."

 

[Gulo Blue]

No, it doesn't. I'm all for reasonable efforts to mitigate bias. Discriminating against people based on their skin color or gender is not "reasonable."

It does. If I create an algorithm to determine who to give loans to with no intention of racial discrimination, but then it's shown to me that controlling for other factors, it does discriminate based on race, I might be tempted to correct for this using race because it's easier than finding the root cause, and you might get upset about that. But the need to address it somehow and the fact that my system is discriminatory without fixing the problem is not impacted by your dislike of one possible solution.

 

[Spartanmack]

It does. If I create an algorithm to determine who to give loans to with no intention of racial discrimination, but then it's shown to me that controlling for other factors, it does discriminate based on race, I might be tempted to correct for this using race because it's easier than finding the root cause, and you might get upset about that. But the need to address it somehow and the fact that my system is discriminatory without fixing the problem is not impacted by your dislike of one possible solution.

wow, I never thought about it in terms of a made up scenario about a racist algorithm that doesn't have racist discrimination built into it's code but still doesn't give loans to people of a certain race at the same rate as others because race may happen, coincidentally to correlate with things like credit scores and other nonracial factors.

And of course, it makes perfect sense to intentionally discriminate against others because it's equality of outcomes that matters. Also it's easier than fixing something that may not in fact be broken because racism is institutionalized and we just need to accept that and that racial or gender based discrimination necessary to fix it.

 

[Gulo Blue]

wow, I never thought about it in terms of a made up scenario about a racist algorithm that doesn't have racist discrimination built into it's code but still doesn't give loans to people of a certain race at the same rate as others because race may happen, coincidentally to correlate with things like credit scores and other nonracial factors.

And of course, it makes perfect sense to intentionally discriminate against others because it's equality of outcomes that matters. Also it's easier than fixing something that may not in fact be broken because racism is institutionalized and we just need to accept that and that racial or gender based discrimination necessary to fix it.

That's where controlling for other factors comes in. If you can explain it through correlations, that's different. But when you can't find anything other than race, then it's racial discrimination to the best of our ability to characterize it.

 

[Spartanmack]

That's where controlling for other factors comes in. If you can explain it through correlations, that's different. But when you can't find anything other than race, then it's racial discrimination to the best of our ability to characterize it.

right, controlling for other factors, algorithms are racist. And you don't question that?

 

[Gulo Blue]

right, controlling for other factors, algorithms are racist. And you don't question that?

Questioning it is fine. Assuming it's always BS without justification isn't.

 

[Spartanmack]

Questioning it is fine. Assuming it's always BS without justification isn't.

I don't think calling BS when someone calls an algorithm racist when they can't find the racist code is really going out on a limb. In fact, in this case where the root cause (the racist code that, after controlling for other factors would lead to discriminatory outcomes) can't be found, it's probably more accurate to say the person calling the algorithm racist is the one who lacks justification.

Also, I'm not the one who always sees it one way but there's a third person involved in most of these conversations who does always assume things are one way, without justification (unless op ed articles from left wing blogs explaining how everything is racist satisfies your standard for justification). Yet for some reason, I'm the one who constantly ends up explaining why your nits, or in this case, your ill conceived hypothetical don't make the case you think they make - sometimes for pages and pages.

 

[Gulo Blue]

I don't think calling BS when someone calls an algorithm racist when they can't find the racist code is really going out on a limb. In fact, in this case where the root cause (the racist code that, after controlling for other factors would lead to discriminatory outcomes) can't be found, it's probably more accurate to say the person calling the algorithm racist is the one who lacks justification.

Also, I'm not the one who always sees it's one way but there's a third person involved in most of these conversations who does always assume things are one way, without justification (unless op ed articles from left wing blogs explaining how everything is racist satisfies your standard for justification). Yet for some reason, I'm the one who constantly ends up explaining why your nits, or in this case, your ill conceived hypothetical don't make the case you think they make - sometimes for pages and pages.

I'm not saying anything about any "racist code". I'm talking about practices or policies or codes that result in a distribution of outcomes, and when you control for education and income and marital status and such, you find differences between races that you can't find an explanation for. I'm saying it's a mistake to just assume every study like that is BS without explanation. What would be the justification for that?

 

[Spartanmack]

I'm not saying anything about any "racist code". I'm talking about practices or policies or codes that result in a distribution of outcomes, and when you control for education and income and marital status and such, you find differences between races that you can't find an explanation for. I'm saying it's a mistake to just assume every study like that is BS without explanation. What would be the justification for that?

In my defense, that's kind of exactly what your hypothetical was saying. In those cases, yes I think it's safe to say it's BS to just conclude that it's systemic or institutionalized racism - algorithms don't have racial or gender discrimination or bias that's not built into their code.

So now, again you're talking about bias. I don't buy the argument that it's being ignored and thus "institutionalized" and "systemic." If you worked in corporate America any time in the last 30+ years, it would be impossible to say that. I personally have worked at almost a dozen companies in my career and have never been at company with more than 20 employees that didn't have mandatory anti-discrimination/bias training at least annually.

Of course bigoted discrimination happens and should absolutely be rooted out, but it's the exception - it's not codified or even engrained into public or private institutions. And we have laws to deal with it. We're mostly talking about bias in America today which I personally don't think can be eliminated but absolutely support reasonable measures to mitigate it.

Again, it's sometimes hard to take you seriously when we have a guy in these conversations who says outrageous shit about how corporate America is run by rich white guys who force people to work for slave wages, fires or threatens to fire anyone who makes a loan or rents an apartment to a black person and yet I'm constantly getting into arguments with you about the difference b/w racism and bias or being told that I'm saying shit i'm not saying, like I'm "always calling BS" or "we can't prevent bias so we shouldn't do anything about it" because I called BS on a specific hypothetical, that was in fact BS.