Ferguson, MO

[tinselwolverine]

I assume the publicity has been a tremendous penalty.

Good.

The more punitive, the better.

 

[Michchamp]

Derek Chauvin's murder trial is underway today, amidst heavy security. (link)

you have to shake your head at the sort of people willing to write this sort of nonsense.

 

[tomdalton22]

Derek Chauvin's murder trial is underway today, amidst heavy security. (link)

you have to shake your head at the sort of people willing to write this sort of nonsense.

well, he did die of a heart attack, and he did have fentanyl in his system.

 

[tigermud]

well, he did die of a heart attack, and he did have fentanyl in his system.

Those types of facts don’t matter though media will massively fan the flames when he’s only found guilty on lessor charges.

 

[Gulo Blue]

well, he did die of a heart attack, and he did have fentanyl in his system.

We know that from the autopsy, which says the fentanyl may have contributed, but blames the restrain and neck compression for the heart attack.

 

[Spartanmack]

there are conflicting reports from different medical examiners. The county says he died of a heart attack - it doesn't say it was caused by the restraint rather that it was complicated by restraint and they didn't respond to questions for clarification. Their report does say no life threatening injuries were identified. The family hired another medical examiner who says he died of asphyxiation. The county's report paints a picture of man who was likely in the process of ODing who also had severe arteriosclerotic heart disease, hypertensive heart disease and COVID 19 while the family's pathologist specifically notes no underlying medical conditions saying "he was in good health." Seems like a bit of a stretch for a guy high on methamphetamine and a lethal dose of fentanyl, who also had COVID 19 and 2 forms of heart disease, but that will be for the jury to decide.

Edit: according to this piece Dr. Baker, the county examiner performed his autopsy before watching the videos from the scene. In his final report, after watching the videos, he ruled Floyd's death a homicide caused by "law enforcement subdual, restraint and neck compression" even though his report specifically notes no injuries to the neck internally and externally.

 

[Gulo Blue]

there are conflicting reports from different medical examiners. The county says he died of a heart attack - it doesn't say it was caused by the restraint rather that it was complicated by restraint and they didn't respond to questions for clarification. Their report does say no life threatening injuries were identified. The family hired another medical examiner who says he died of asphyxiation. The county's report paints a picture of man who was likely in the process of ODing who also had severe arteriosclerotic heart disease, hypertensive heart disease and COVID 19 while the family's pathologist specifically notes no underlying medical conditions saying "he was in good health." Seems like a bit of a stretch for a guy high on methamphetamine and a lethal dose of fentanyl, who also had COVID 19 and 2 forms of heart disease, but that will be for the jury to decide.

Edit: according to this piece Dr. Baker, the county examiner performed his autopsy before watching the videos from the scene. In his final report, after watching the videos, he ruled Floyd's death a homicide caused by "law enforcement subdual, restraint and neck compression" even though his report specifically notes no injuries to the neck internally and externally.

FYI, 1st and 3rd link are the same

 

[Michchamp]

...
Edit: according to this piece Dr. Baker, the county examiner performed his autopsy before watching the videos from the scene. In his final report, after watching the videos, he ruled Floyd's death a homicide caused by "law enforcement subdual, restraint and neck compression" even though his report specifically notes no injuries to the neck internally and externally.

maybe watching a video of a man kneel on another man's neck until he stops moving, passes out, and then dies is more conclusive evidence of the cause of death than a medical exam?

 

[Gulo Blue]

Cause of death matters from a legal perspective, because we assign penalties, in large part, according to repercussions. But does it matter so much ethically?

Relative to arguments on this board, I think it would be weird to point to the drugs as being of top importance, when that knowledge comes from a document that clearly points to them as less significant than the restraint.

 

[Gulo Blue]

No expert, but 10 out of 11 of these overdoses, which are all different drug mixes, involved less fentanyl than Floyd had in the measured sample. I'm not sure if serum/urine measurements are directly comparable to blood, but it seems like a potentially lethal dose to me.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/66/wr/pdfs/mm6604a4.pdf

 

[Michchamp]

No expert, but 10 out of 11 of these overdoses, which are all different drug mixes, involved less fentanyl than Floyd had in the measured sample. I'm not sure if serum/urine measurements are directly comparable to blood, but it seems like a potentially lethal dose to me.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/66/wr/pdfs/mm6604a4.pdf

Fentanyl has been the subject of the sort of typical "drug panic" in the media over the last couple years we've all come to know and love. Only the latest in a long line of freakouts going back to the 60's over weed, LSD, crack, K2 or synthetic weed, etc. When I hear reporting on things like that from US state media like ABC, NBC, CBS, or government offices like the CDC or DEA, I take it with a grain of salt.

I watched the entirety of the Floyd arrest (pre-kneeling on his neck) and while he definitely does not seem sober, he just looks drunk and really high, not like he's about to OD on something. He's not passing out.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Fentanyl has been the subject of the sort of typical "drug panic" in the media over the last couple years we've all come to know and love. Only the latest in a long line of freakouts going back to the 60's over weed, LSD, crack, K2 or synthetic weed, etc. When I hear reporting on things like that from US state media like ABC, NBC, CBS, or government offices like the CDC or DEA, I take it with a grain of salt.

I watched the entirety of the Floyd arrest (pre-kneeling on his neck) and while he definitely does not seem sober, he just looks drunk and really high, not like he's about to OD on something. He's not passing out.

There's speculation (I think it's speculation) that he took pills not long before this happened and it could have been in the process of kicking in.

But the recent opiate freakout is different than past freakouts. Corporate pharma cashed in this time.

 

[Spartanmack]

maybe watching a video of a man kneel on another man's neck until he stops moving, passes out, and then dies is more conclusive evidence of the cause of death than a medical exam?

is that what they taught you at law school? It's not like Floyd was shot and Chauvin denied shooting him and then he watched a video where Chauvin shot him. According to the ME, there is no physical evidence of any life threatening injuries - this seems like a clear cut case of police brutality and Chauvin should be punished for that, but this video doesn't prove Chauvin killed him.

 

[Spartanmack]

FYI, 1st and 3rd link are the same

apologies, this should have been the 3rd link.

 

[Spartanmack]

Fentanyl has been the subject of the sort of typical "drug panic" in the media over the last couple years we've all come to know and love. Only the latest in a long line of freakouts going back to the 60's over weed, LSD, crack, K2 or synthetic weed, etc. When I hear reporting on things like that from US state media like ABC, NBC, CBS, or government offices like the CDC or DEA, I take it with a grain of salt.

I watched the entirety of the Floyd arrest (pre-kneeling on his neck) and while he definitely does not seem sober, he just looks drunk and really high, not like he's about to OD on something. He's not passing out.

so now you're an expert on toxicology and you only need video evidence to know a complete stranger's condition. To heck with blood tests and all that science stuff, if he's not passing out, he's not about to OD or have a drug induced heart attack given his pre-existing heart conditions. Wait, can you tell he doesn't actually have 2 serious heart conditions from the video too? Is the Media and the ME lying about those too? The idea that you think you have ground to stand on and call into question evidence presented by anyone is just beyond absurd.

 

[Gulo Blue]

apologies, this should have been the 3rd link.

Weird. Why do an autopsy without seeing the video to avoid bias, and then watch the video and edit the report? Something changed his mind about the importance of avoiding bias.

With regard to the guilt of the officer, I'd be more interested to know if/when Floyd stopped moving and stopped breathing. Over 8 minutes of kneeling on someones neck should be recognized as a potentially lethal level of force applied to anyone. In the process of doing it, if you've got minutes of seeing and feeling that the body has gone limp and they aren't breathing and you keep applying that force, that's murder. You feel if a person is breathing and how deeply they are breathing.

 

[Gulo Blue]

If he passed out, that would make continued kneeling on his neck worse, wouldn't it?

 

[Gulo Blue]

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/convictions-officers-st-louis-protest-beating-76767517

No convictions were returned for three white St. Louis police officers accused of beating a Black undercover colleague so severely during a 2017 protest over another officer’s acquittal that he had to undergo multiple surgeries

 

[Michchamp]

is that what they taught you at law school? It's not like Floyd was shot and Chauvin denied shooting him and then he watched a video where Chauvin shot him. According to the ME, there is no physical evidence of any life threatening injuries - this seems like a clear cut case of police brutality and Chauvin should be punished for that, but this video doesn't prove Chauvin killed him.

so now you're an expert on toxicology and you only need video evidence to know a complete stranger's condition. To heck with blood tests and all that science stuff, if he's not passing out, he's not about to OD or have a drug induced heart attack given his pre-existing heart conditions. Wait, can you tell he doesn't actually have 2 serious heart conditions from the video too? Is the Media and the ME lying about those too? The idea that you think you have ground to stand on and call into question evidence presented by anyone is just beyond absurd.

So now we're done to insisting everyone else has to be a qualified expert in order to have an opinion except you.

No, law school didn't teach me that if you had to examine a dead body and surmise a cause of death from the trauma, you might come to a different conclusion as to the cause of death than you would if you watched a video of the person being murdered.

That's just common sense.

 

[byco42]

I'm an expert in not delving into areas where I am not an expert. Like this area, for example.

Seems that the three charges are in place from a progressive standpoint, one led to the next.

There is still something very off about the way that Floyd was removed from the scene.