Ferguson, MO

[Gulo Blue]

You called it BS because it's BS?


That's BS.


Algorithms trained on data arising from a society with a significant biased component can inadvertently yield biased results due to correlations we don't even recognize. This is a well-known topic. Google (or Duck Duck Go, or Bing) AI and bias and click whatever looks reasonable to you (not the left wingyist looking thing, obviously)

 

[Gulo Blue]

In my defense, that's kind of exactly what your hypothetical was saying. In those cases, yes I think it's safe to say it's BS to just conclude that it's systemic or institutionalized racism - algorithms don't have racial or gender discrimination or bias that's not built into their code.

So now, again you're talking about bias. I don't buy the argument that it's being ignored and thus "institutionalized" and "systemic." If you worked in corporate America any time in the last 30+ years, it would be impossible to say that. I personally have worked at almost a dozen companies in my career and have never been at company with more than 20 employees that didn't have mandatory anti-discrimination/bias training at least annually.

Of course bigoted discrimination happens and should absolutely be rooted out, but it's the exception - it's not codified or even engrained into public or private institutions. And we have laws to deal with it. We're mostly talking about bias in America today which I personally don't think can be eliminated but absolutely support reasonable measures to mitigate it.

I just said I'm talking about situations where the system is known to produce biased outcomes and the leadership doesn't try to fix it, knowing that it's there. It doesn't have to be explicit. If there's evidence that the efforts of the last 30+ years did the job, great, I can't wait for ANY data to back that up.

 

[Spartanmack]

You called it BS because it's BS?


That's BS.


Algorithms trained on data arising from a society with a significant biased component can inadvertently yield biased results due to correlations we don't even recognize. This is a well-known topic. Google (or Duck Duck Go, or Bing) AI and bias and click whatever looks reasonable to you (not the left wingyist looking thing, obviously)

so black people can't get loans because bank software has learned to arbitrarily deny applications from peopel with black sounding names?

If they can learn bias, that's not specifically built into their code, then it's BS that they can't unlearn it. So it's also BS that the only way to fix it is through racial or gender discrimination.

 

[Gulo Blue]

What is it about the word systemic that bothers you so much? Why would you think that large systems of people wouldn't have engrained tendencies to discriminate?

 

[Gulo Blue]

so black people can't get loans because bank software has learned to arbitrarily deny applications from peopel with black sounding names?

If they can learn bias, that's not specifically built into their code, then it's BS that they can't unlearn it. So it's also BS that the only way to fix it is through racial or gender discrimination.

It's difficult. Check scholar.google.com. "ai bias" gets 98,900 hits since 2017 which is a ton of research by STEM oriented people.

 

[Michchamp]

It's difficult. Check scholar.google.com. "ai bias" gets 98,900 hits since 2017 which is a ton of research by STEM oriented people.

they're all bullshit

 

[Spartanmack]

What is it about the word systemic that bothers you so much? Why would you think that large systems of people wouldn't have engrained tendencies to discriminate?

I'm not bothered in the least by the word and I'm not going to get into another pedantic argument for pages about definitions. systemic and institutionalized discrimination to me means a policy or practice that results in an advantage/disadvantage for people based on a group identity. Bias, particularly unconscious bias doesn't meet that definition.

 

[Gulo Blue]

I'm not bothered in the least by the word and I'm not going to get into another pedantic argument for pages about definitions. systemic and institutionalized discrimination to me means a policy or practice that results in an advantage/disadvantage for people based on a group identity. Bias, particularly unconscious bias doesn't meet that definition.

It wouldn't be pages of definitions if you would just stick with an accurate complete definition. Because unconscious bias is a part of it, but not sufficient on its own. We're talking about discriminatory outcomes of policies or practices that almost certainly arise from how bias interacts with those policies, and that difference is the thing. If enough participants in a system are biased, the system can produce biased results. And we know enough participant in the system are biased because there a ton of studies in that thread that show that bias turn up everywhere you look, like even how long people have to wait for a car to let them cross to the front of a grocery store. These 1,000 cuts are engrained into our systems to the point the Bank of American paid $335 million in 2011 to settle the discriminatory outcomes of their loan decision making system (also in that thread.) Citigroup estimates our economy has missed out on $13 Trillion with a capital T and 6 million jobs over the last 20 years due to discriminatory lending practices. That's not isolated discrimination, it's systemic.

 

[Spartanmack]

It wouldn't be pages of definitions if you would just stick with an accurate complete definition.

I have.

 

[Gulo Blue]

I have.

No you haven't. I think that's why you get concerned about things being pedantic or nit picky. Most of us don't need to be careful with our language with each other because we just trying to convey meaning, not steer the claims of the people we're talking to. You shift the terms when you re-state what you think other people are saying and if they point out the difference you complain about nit pickiness. In conversations about discrimination, it seemed you were just dying to get called racist so you can complain about how unfair that label is to you and it's the only card people have to play. That's my read on it anyway.

 

[Michchamp]

I have.

Hey, is this the first time you've written a post without having to go back a dozen times, and edit out all the typos?

 

[Spartanmack]

No you haven't. I think that's why you get concerned about things being pedantic or nit picky. Most of us don't need to be careful with our language with each other because we just trying to convey meaning, not steer the claims of the people we're talking to. You shift the terms when you re-state what you think other people are saying and if they point out the difference you complain about nit pickiness. In conversations about discrimination, it seemed you were just dying to get called racist so you can complain about how unfair that label is to you and it's the only card people have to play. That's my read on it anyway.

This is my nomination for least self aware post of 2021, and probably at leasst the trailing 12 months.

 

[Spartanmack]

Hey, is this the first time you've written a post without having to go back a dozen times, and edit out all the typos?

Maybe. Congrats on your first post where you didn't find racism, or at least mention the obvious racism.

 

[Gulo Blue]

In conversations about discrimination, it seemed you were just dying to get called racist so you can complain about how unfair that label is to you and it's the only card people have to play. That's my read on it anyway.

This is my nomination for least self aware post of 2021, and probably at leasst the trailing 12 months.

Maybe. Congrats on your first post where you didn't find racism, or at least mention the obvious racism.

Beautiful set of consecutive posts there.

 

[Spartanmack]

Beautiful set of consecutive posts there.

oooh, that's a big gotcha - yeah, it's a big reach given his recent totally un-sarcastic posts about structural racism being a primary cause of the Flint water crisis (he even had an nonpartisan article that "proved" it). Making fun of the guy who sees racism in everything for seeing racism in everything, especially with monumentally stupid examples is really just attention seeking by me - that's weak even for you.

 

[Gulo Blue]

oooh, that's a big gotcha - yeah, it's a big reach given his recent totally un-sarcastic posts about structural racism being a primary cause of the Flint water crisis. Make fun of the guy who sees racism in everything for seeing racism in everything is just attention seeking by me - that's weak even for you.

Humor is often a matter of timing.

 

[Spartanmack]

Humor is often a matter of timing.

how would you know?

 

[Gulo Blue]

how would you know?

I looked it up on scholar.google.com.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Central Park Karen Not Charged After Undergoing Woke Scold Retraining Camp

All kidding aside, I’m glad she didn’t just walk - I hope what she was subjected to was unpleasant.

It wasn’t racial, but I myself have been the victim of a false police report perpetrated by an evil, psychopathological cunt piece of dog shit - it was not a lot of fun.

 

[Gulo Blue]

I assume the publicity has been a tremendous penalty.