Ferguson, MO

[Spartanmack]

I see kneeling on a neck differently from kneeling on a neck for 8 minutes, well after they're out. The latter is a lot more like shooting somebody. I don't know what the survival rate might be, but it could be comparable to getting shot.

I do too - it's evidence of the difference between force and excessive force. And I also think, after the Eric Garner case, any cop who hears a subdued suspect say they can't breath and doesn't immediately get them in a seated or standing or less prone position, is a complete idiot and probably and asshole too.

but if it was a cause of death, I think there would be some direct physical evidence of that. I think if leaning on someone's neck causes death you'd see physical evidence of something like strangulation or a collapsed wind pipe or broken vertebrae or spinal damage. I could be wrong, but I doubt there's some threshold of time where you lean on someone's neck long enough that you eventually cause a heart attack.

Edit: that last sentence could easily be interpreted as smarmy sarcasm, it's not.

 

[Gulo Blue]

I do too - it's evidence of the difference between force and excessive force. And I also think, after the Eric Garner case, any cop who hears a subdued suspect say they can't breath and doesn't immediately get them in a seated or standing or less prone position, is a complete idiot and probably and asshole too.

but if it was a cause of death, I think there would be some direct physical evidence of that. I think if leaning on someone's neck causes death you'd see physical evidence of something like strangulation or a collapsed wind pipe or broken vertebrae or spinal damage. I could be wrong, but I doubt there's some threshold of time where you lean on someone's neck long enough that you eventually cause a heart attack.

Edit: that last sentence could easily be interpreted as smarmy sarcasm, it's not.

I think struggling for air could cause a heart attack without that damage. I think it's implied by the autopsy that that's possible. As far as how long is too long, I haven't heard an account yet that makes it sound like there was any question.

 

[Spartanmack]

I think struggling for air could cause a heart attack without that damage. I think it's implied by the autopsy that that's possible. As far as how long is too long, I haven't heard an account yet that makes it sound like there was any question.

I think that's definitely possible. If I'm not mistaken, Floyd was saying he was having problems breathing before they took him out of the car. There's a pretty good chance he was dying or at high risk of a heart attack when they approached him. It's also possible that Chauvin's actions contributed to that and possible they didn't - my non-expert reading of the report seem to indicate that's a judgement call, not a fact proven by the evidence.

 

[Gulo Blue]

I think that's definitely possible. If I'm not mistaken, Floyd was saying he was having problems breathing before they took him out of the car. There's a pretty good chance he was dying or at high risk of a heart attack when they approached him. It's also possible that Chauvin's actions contributed to that and possible they didn't - my non-expert reading of the report seem to indicate that's a judgement call, not a fact proven by the evidence.

Even if that was the case, doesn't really matter if Chauvin knew he might be dying or if he didn't. Either way his actions we're inappropriate.

 

[Michchamp]

Even if that was the case, doesn't really matter if Chauvin knew he might be dying or if he didn't. Either way his actions we're inappropriate.

yes, murdering someone is inappropriate behavior.

 

[tinselwolverine]

yes, murdering someone is inappropriate behavior.

Even if it ends up not being proven that legally it was murder, it was certainly very rude.

 

[Michchamp]

Even if it ends up not being proven that legally it was murder, it was certainly very rude.

Gulo has always frowned on that sort of thing

 

[tinselwolverine]

Gulo has always frowned on that sort of thing

You?re actually leaving the 2021 Eastern Regional Championship game to comment on my post?

 

[tinselwolverine]

I’m going to suggest don’t let Mike Smith take a three as the clock is running out.

 

[zyxt9]

I?m going to suggest don?t let Mike Smith take a three as the clock is running out.

How about Wagner??? Uh...nm

 

[Michchamp]

You?re actually leaving the 2021 Eastern Regional Championship game to comment on my post?

I'm a tenacious ping pong player. I return every volley.

 

[tinselwolverine]

I'm a tenacious ping pong player. I return every volley.

I guess.

So was Mao Sedong, it is said.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Gulo has always frowned on that sort of thing

How am I getting pointed to as someone who's not calling it murder? Keep it up, and I might have to 'tsk' at you.

 

[Spartanmack]

Even if that was the case, doesn't really matter if Chauvin knew he might be dying or if he didn't. Either way his actions we're inappropriate.

again, I'm in complete agreement here (with the exception of the apostrophe - I wouldn't have used that).

 

[Gulo Blue]

again, I'm in complete agreement here (with the exception of the apostrophe - I wouldn't have used that).

I used the wrong word though too. I think it's murder as described. Even if Floyd OD'ed, squeezing the life out of someone in a way that would be murder is still murder if the man is dying of something else too.

 

[Michchamp]

I used the wrong word though too. I think it's murder as described. Even if Floyd OD'ed, squeezing the life out of someone in a way that would be murder is still murder if the man is dying of something else too.

Who can say that kneeling on a man's neck for 8+ minutes is harmful? Are you a doctor? It might not have hurt him at all.

He was pleading for his life and saying he can't breath for other reasons. probably just because he was on drugs. a 185 lb man kneeling on his neck had nothing to do with it. probably.

 

[Michchamp]

Maybe kneeling on George Floyd's neck actually helped him breath better? You don't know. Nobody knows!

 

[Spartanmack]

I used the wrong word though too. I think it's murder as described. Even if Floyd OD'ed, squeezing the life out of someone in a way that would be murder is still murder if the man is dying of something else too.

I think it's definitely criminal and not just inappropriate. I'm not sure there's evidence that proves he squeezed the life out of him so I'm not sure it's murder. Even assholes who commit crimes don't deserve to be convicted of crimes they didn't commit.

 

[Spartanmack]

Who can say that kneeling on a man's neck for 8+ minutes is harmful? Are you a doctor? It might not have hurt him at all.

He was pleading for his life and saying he can't breath for other reasons. probably just because he was on drugs. a 185 lb man kneeling on his neck had nothing to do with it. probably.

harmful doesn't mean it caused his death and is murder - they're not the same and again, there's no physical evidence of harm according to the ME report. And possibly or even probably aren't proof beyond the shadow of a doubt but maybe you were absent the day they taught law in law school.

 

[Michchamp]

I think it's definitely criminal and not just inappropriate. I'm not sure there's evidence that proves he squeezed the life out of him so I'm not sure it's murder. Even assholes who commit crimes don't deserve to be convicted of crimes they didn't commit.

Like if I punch someone, I shouldn't be convicted of criminal battery because it's impossible to say for sure if I punched them or they ran into my fist.