Game 3: Broncos @ Lions *Sunday Night* Thread

[tonyballs]

Stafford isn't luke mcCown. And I didn't even know he was still in the league.

Did someone hear a toilet flush?

 

[tbone413]

I think you can win a SB with an average QB yes. All of those guys Tony mentioned had (to my memory) average regular seasons, however they had good to excellent post seasons.


Do I think Stafford has the ability to have a stretch of 4 games where he performs at a high level? I still think he does (not with this coaching staff though).

Stafford wont ever be the guy who is the difference between a team going 4-12 and 12-4 like Rodgers, Brady, Manning (of old) are, but those guys are the exception...plenty of teams make playoff runs and make the S/B without having a top 5 QB, it just takes getting hot at the right time...

I took a look a this briefly and here are the Reg season rankings of some recent SB winning QB's. (cant find their Post season rating at the moment)



2013 - R Wilson (13th ranked QBR Reg Season)
2012 - J Flacco (22nd ranked QBR Reg Season)
2011 - E Manning (11th ranked QBR Reg Season)
2008 - B Rothelisburger (27 ranked QBR Reg Season)
2007 - E Manning (25th ranked QB Reg Season)

I dont have time to keep looking others up, but as you can see, its possible to have an average, or even below average season and still win the SB...it takes a team effort.

 

[tonyballs]

I took a look a this briefly and here are the Reg season rankings of some recent SB winning QB's. (cant find their Post season rating at the moment)



2013 - R Wilson (13th ranked QBR Reg Season)
2012 - J Flacco (22nd ranked QBR Reg Season)
2011 - E Manning (11th ranked QBR Reg Season)
2008 - B Rothelisburger (27 ranked QBR Reg Season)
2007 - E Manning (25th ranked QB Reg Season)

I dont have time to keep looking others up, but as you can see, its possible to have an average, or even below average season and still win the SB...it takes a team effort.

Can't believe i forgot about Flacco....wow

 

[brewer229]

Fair enough. Big Ben will go to the HOF. The numbers are there, but its the rings that guarantee him in. Eli too. And my take on Wilson will always stand pat....he's in the perfect system, even though he's getting a little bit exposed right now in that offense. He's not elite. Doesn't mean i dont like them...just an opinion

Go look at Aikman's numbers and tell me he belongs in the HOF. Not a chance. He was surrounded by superstars his whole career on both sides of the ball. He's the most overrated QB to ever play the game in my mind....

Let's look at Aikman's Superbowl years:

1995:
QB rating: 3rd.
Completion %: 2nd
YPA: 1st

1993:
QB Rating: 2nd
Completion %: 1st
YPA: 3rd

1992:
QB Rating: 3rd
Completion %: 5th
YPA: 8th

Now I think Aikman is a bit overrated, but its not like he was a scrub out there. He was an incredibly efficient QB that took advantage of what he had. Not nearly as bad as you are making him sound.

 

[dubbsco]

This is kind of fun today, real football conversation.

 

[tbone413]

My point is if you look at everything as Per Attempt (trying to normalize the numbers) he is essentially the same in 2014 as in 2011-2013 and better in 2014 than he was in 2012-2013. He did have a great 2011.

So if he got the same amount of attempts under Lombardi as he did in prior years he would of put up the same number of stats. So they haven't improved him, but he isn't playing any worse under them. He just is what he is, statistically average and inconsistent. People just thought he was more than he was because he put up a lot of yards. He put up a lot of yards because he threw the ball a lot, not because the system was better for him, just because he had more attempts.
It's tough to win with him, he just isn't efficient in an era where efficiency is key to QB play.

Alright - I can agree with most of this. I still think Lombardi isnt utilizing him correctly (IE forcing him to play under center/make precision quick throws)

I cant find a site that compares the QB rating of a player under center vs shotgun formation, but I have to imagine Staffords numbers are far superior out of the shotgun. I also imagine its better to go out of the shotgun if your teams Oline has trouble in Pass Pro...

 

[brewer229]

I took a look a this briefly and here are the Reg season rankings of some recent SB winning QB's. (cant find their Post season rating at the moment)



2013 - R Wilson (13th ranked QBR Reg Season)
2012 - J Flacco (22nd ranked QBR Reg Season)
2011 - E Manning (11th ranked QBR Reg Season)
2008 - B Rothelisburger (27 ranked QBR Reg Season)
2007 - E Manning (25th ranked QB Reg Season)

I dont have time to keep looking others up, but as you can see, its possible to have an average, or even below average season and still win the SB...it takes a team effort.

2013 Wilson was 7th
2012 Flacco was 12th
2011 Eli was 7th
2008 Ben was 24th
2007 Eli was 25th.

Unless you are not talking QB rating

 

[tbone413]

2013 Wilson was 7th
2012 Flacco was 12th
2011 Eli was 7th
2008 Ben was 24th
2007 Eli was 25th.

Unless you are not talking QB rating

I used QBR up until 2007 Eli, as that stat didnt exist (in the website I looked at atleast). 2007 I used QB Rating

 

[tbone413]

I actually like QB Rating better, so we can use your numbers. Still kind of paints the same picture though

 

[brewer229]

I used QBR up until 2007 Eli, as that stat didnt exist (in the website I looked at atleast). 2007 I used QB Rating

Oh gotcha.
I never understood how ESPN calculates their QBR stat, I forget that stat exist.

I get the feeling at times it's just the opinion of Chris Berman.

 

[brewer229]

I actually like QB Rating better, so we can use your numbers. Still kind of paints the same picture though

What I take from it is if you don't have an elite QB you need an Elite defense and run game. Which we don't seem to have.

 

[tbone413]

What I take from it is if you don't have an elite QB you need an Elite defense and run game. Which we don't seem to have.

Agreed on that...last year we had 1/2 of that equation, but this year we have zero...actually we have less than zero

 

[Mitchrapp]

Dont mean to pick this one out of the group, but I was reading this thread and decided to chime in about this Stafford Debate..

A lot has been said about Staffords 2011-2013 years, which were the three years he played 16 games prior to this current coaching staff 'fixing him'.

In those 3 years (2011-2013), Stafford Averaged the following:
60.6 Compl %, 4886 yards, 30 TD, 17.3 INT

The League Average for QBS who played more than 10 games for those 3 years (2011-2013)
61 Compl %, 3555 yards, 22.3 TD, 13 INT

The Average of the Top 10 QB's for each of those 3 years (2011-2013)
62.83 Compl %, 4422 yards, 30 TD, 15.5 INT



So essentially, those three years prior to being 'coached up' by Caldwell and Lombardi, Stafford performed (on average) like a top 10 QB.

Last year he performed in the bottom 1/2 of the league, and this year hes dead last...Stafford is not an elite QB by any stretch, but I think he can be above average to good, given the correct coaching...and clearly Caldwell and Lombardi are not those people..

The problem is 2011 was top notch so it brings up the next two year averages up. 2012-2103 was below what you posted. He had a great year, a shitty year (less than average) and a slightly above average year. At least that's how I see it.

 

[Mitchrapp]

So 2112-13 averages, 24.5-18 TD-INT ratio with 59% completion. What does that tell us?

 

[grandy]

It was hysterical that right when Chris Collingsworth was giving his "year 7 qb...this is when guys like stafford are supposed to beat manning" speech...he throws a pick. It was really really funny lol.

We all know that comes in year 8, I don't know what he's talking about.

Y8Stafford + Y3Ebron + Y3Lombardi = Super Bowl

 

[Mitchrapp]

We all know that comes in year 8, I don't know what he's talking about.

Y8Stafford + Y3Ebron + Y6Bell + Y3Lombardi = Super Bowl

ftfy.

 

[mhughes0021]

Honesty....its year 7. He's proven by now he can't overcome shit. If our defense is poor he can't outscore teams. If our weapons are poor....he can't throw people open. If our oline is poor. ...he has no pocket awareness and can't improvise to make teams pay. When you have a guy like that you need to spend the money elsewhere to make the team better. Mayhews dumb ass gives guys like that an extension. We will forever suck with mayhew leading this team. He has no clue. We're talking about a dufuss that gave schwartz an extension and wanted to fire him less than a year later. Stafford on a huge #1 overall salary. 1 good year and BOOM extend the shit out of him and put yourself in cap hell with an average at best qb. Mayhew needs to go first. Then lombardi and caldwell. Then stafford. Then we might be able to have a consistent team. This is not a team. ...

 

[Mitchrapp]

Honesty....its year 7. He's proven by now he can't overcome shit. If our defense is poor he can't outscore teams. If our weapons are poor....he can't throw people open. If our oline is poor. ...he has no pocket awareness and can't improvise to make teams pay. When you have a guy like that you need to spend the money elsewhere to make the team better. Mayhews dumb ass gives guys like that an extension. We will forever suck with mayhew leading this team. He has no clue. We're talking about a dufuss that gave schwartz an extension and wanted to fire him less than a year later. Stafford on a huge #1 overall salary. 1 good year and BOOM extend the shit out of him and put yourself in cap hell with an average at best qb. Mayhew needs to go first. Then lombardi and caldwell. Then stafford. Then we might be able to have a consistent team. This is not a team. ...

It was always going to bad. His mentor was Millen.

 

[grandy]

ftfy.

True

Great hometown story, need to get him as many carries as possible.

1.1 YPC is just a number, it's the heart that matters.

 

[mhughes0021]

We have starters at very impactful positions from wayne state and eastern Michigan. Then we wonder why we suck....