Game 3: Broncos @ Lions *Sunday Night* Thread

[tonyballs]

Yards? Wow. It was his worst year, that's obvious. Who gives a fk about yards? Who care if he's more comfortable if he still stinks. He'll make a great throw than make 2-3 bad ones. Good QB's don't do that..

At first I thought you just liked to argue now I realize you're just dumb.

I'm dumb because you're a ****ing retard? Lol. If you know all the answers then why did you ask me, you shit for brains ****ing idiot?

And i don't give a **** about the yards, but his numbers are noticably different in this offense. And you don't care if he's comfortable? Well, do you think he does? You're a ****ing imbecile, Mitch. Ya know, i try and be cool on this board but i have to deal with dummies like you constantly. It's exhausting trying to even have a football conversation with a retard....it really is. My 3 yr old is more knowledgable than you. But who gives a shit about the comfort level of our QB, right??? Bottomline.....Stafford doesn't look comfortable in this offense....

 

[Mitchrapp]

I'm dumb because you're a ****ing retard? Lol. If you know all the answers then why did you ask me, you shit for brains ****ing idiot?

And i don't give a **** about the yards, but his numbers are noticably different in this offense. And you don't care if he's comfortable? Well, do you think he does? You're a ****ing imbecile, Mitch. Ya know, i try and be cool on this board but i have to deal with dummies like you constantly. It's exhausting trying to even have a football conversation with a retard....it really is. My 3 yr old is more knowledgable than you. But who gives a shit about the comfort level of our QB, right??? Bottomline.....Stafford doesn't look comfortable in this offense....

Of course don't blame the QB in any of this. 'Try to be cool." Haha. You're funny, stupid but funny. You have so much vile anger it's obvious. Your 3 year old must be a prodigy.

 

[brewer229]

I'm dumb because you're a ****ing retard? Lol. If you know all the answers then why did you ask me, you shit for brains ****ing idiot?

And i don't give a **** about the yards, but his numbers are noticably different in this offense. And you don't care if he's comfortable? Well, do you think he does? You're a ****ing imbecile, Mitch. Ya know, i try and be cool on this board but i have to deal with dummies like you constantly. It's exhausting trying to even have a football conversation with a retard....it really is. My 3 yr old is more knowledgable than you. But who gives a shit about the comfort level of our QB, right??? Bottomline.....Stafford doesn't look comfortable in this offense....

What you can't comprehend is there is no difference, the only difference is he is throwing the ball a less amount of times:

2011-2013:
YPA: 7.24
Comp %: 60.62
TD to INT: 1.73

2014
YPA: 7.07
Comp %: 60.30
TD to INT: 1.83 to 1

So in 2014, he had a slightly less YPA compared to the prior 3 years (That averages out to about 6 yards a game difference) A very slightly worse comp % (That is the equivalent of 2 completions a year) and had a slightly better TD to INT ratio in 2014. All in all he played the exact same as he did the past three years..which included the great season.


If you remove the odd ball season (2011), you will see 2014 was his best year compared to 2012 and 2013:

2012/2013:
YPA: 7.07
Comp %: 59.22
TD to INT Ratio: 1.36 to 1


So maybe it's not as much the system, it's just without all the attempts you see what he truely is. A below average QB. It's tough to come to the realization your Franchise QB is crap.

 

[tonyballs]

Of course don't blame the QB in any of this. 'Try to be cool." Haha. You're funny, stupid but funny. You have so much vile anger it's obvious. Your 3 year old must be a prodigy.

Dude, you cant even talk football. You have the brain capacity of a piece of toast.... I have no anger. I just cant stand your ignorance. You ask a question, then you question the answer. You do it all the time, dummy.

And i do blame him for shit. I just dont think he deserves most of the blame. This system is no good for him, he's not a conservative QB. His numbers were better in a different offense.

 

[dubbsco]

Other than 2011, his numbers weren't that much better. He just throws for a lot of yards, which is the equivalent to wins/losses for MLB pitchers. His TD/INT, QBR, all that stuff has been consistently average.

So if you think he was more comfortable in the past, and that was the best he can do, then he's not your guy.

 

[tonyballs]

What you can't comprehend is there is no difference, the only difference is he is throwing the ball a less amount of times:

2011-2013:
YPA: 7.24
Comp %: 60.62
TD to INT: 1.73

2014
YPA: 7.07
Comp %: 60.30
TD to INT: 1.83 to 1

So in 2014, he had a slightly less YPA compared to the prior 3 years (That averages out to about 6 yards a game difference) A very slightly worse comp % (That is the equivalent of 2 completions a year) and had a slightly better TD to INT ratio in 2014. All in all he played the exact same as he did the past three years..which included the great season.


If you remove the odd ball season (2011), you will see 2014 was his best year compared to 2012 and 2013:

2012/2013:
YPA: 7.07
Comp %: 59.22
TD to INT Ratio: 1.36 to 1


So maybe it's not as much the system, it's just without all the attempts you see what he truely is. A below average QB. It's tough to come to the realization your Franchise QB is crap.

MY franchise QB? So you're a troll. You just outed yourself. I knew it...lol. So obvious!! Packer fan?? Ya

And i did think he had a good year last year. Even though his numbers were down. His comp% was up and his INTS were down. He was asked to be a more conservative QB and its not working this year. Something is wrong.....

And one of the main reasons why his attempts were down last year is because they had a top 5 defense the whole year. No need to throw all the time when you're either up in a game or even close. I get football, i played it for 15 years and have coached too.

 

[tbone413]

1 year. You mean he had his 1 best year when freelancing. How about those other years 2012 and 2013?

Dont mean to pick this one out of the group, but I was reading this thread and decided to chime in about this Stafford Debate..

A lot has been said about Staffords 2011-2013 years, which were the three years he played 16 games prior to this current coaching staff 'fixing him'.

In those 3 years (2011-2013), Stafford Averaged the following:
60.6 Compl %, 4886 yards, 30 TD, 17.3 INT

The League Average for QBS who played more than 10 games for those 3 years (2011-2013)
61 Compl %, 3555 yards, 22.3 TD, 13 INT

The Average of the Top 10 QB's for each of those 3 years (2011-2013)
62.83 Compl %, 4422 yards, 30 TD, 15.5 INT



So essentially, those three years prior to being 'coached up' by Caldwell and Lombardi, Stafford performed (on average) like a top 10 QB.

Last year he performed in the bottom 1/2 of the league, and this year hes dead last...Stafford is not an elite QB by any stretch, but I think he can be above average to good, given the correct coaching...and clearly Caldwell and Lombardi are not those people..

 

[tonyballs]

Other than 2011, his numbers weren't that much better. He just throws for a lot of yards, which is the equivalent to wins/losses for MLB pitchers. His TD/INT, QBR, all that stuff has been consistently average.

So if you think he was more comfortable in the past, and that was the best he can do, then he's not your guy.

Why do you think he has thrown for a lot of yards? Answer me that. Especially in the past? Because their defense has been notoriously dogshit from day 1 he's been here. They're usually always down and trying to catch up!

 

[tonyballs]

Dont mean to pick this one out of the group, but I was reading this thread and decided to chime in about this Stafford Debate..

A lot has been said about Staffords 2011-2013 years, which were the three years he played 16 games prior to this current coaching staff 'fixing him'.

In those 3 years (2011-2013), Stafford Averaged the following:
60.6 Compl %, 4886 yards, 30 TD, 17.3 INT

The League Average for QBS who played more than 10 games for those 3 years (2011-2013)
61 Compl %, 3555 yards, 22.3 TD, 13 INT

The Average of the Top 10 QB's for each of those 3 years (2011-2013)
62.83 Compl %, 4422 yards, 30 TD, 15.5 INT



So essentially, those three years prior to being 'coached up' by Caldwell and Lombardi, Stafford performed (on average) like a top 10 QB.

Last year he performed in the bottom 1/2 of the league, and this year hes dead last...Stafford is not an elite QB by any stretch, but I think he can be above average to good, given the correct coaching...and clearly Caldwell and Lombardi are not those people..

I guess numbers dont lie!!!!

 

[tbone413]

Also, before it gets brought up; YES - Stafford had 1 great season, and 1 bad season, then 1 mediocre season in those 3 years.

The Great (2011) season inflates his average numbers a bit...as its much better than his next 'best' season.

I am not trying to say Stafford is a top 10 QB, (hes not even average at the moment), nor do I think he will ever get close to that 2011 season (stats wise), but I do think he can consistently perform in the 11-15 QB range, and have an occasional top 5-10 season if he gets lucky. I also think he is not the reason the team is 0-3, and that the team can perform at a fairly high level with him having career average numbers...

My point in that post was to emphasize just how much of a **** up Caldwell and Lombardi have been in 'helping' Stafford when we consider that was #1 reason they were hired....

 

[brewer229]

Dont mean to pick this one out of the group, but I was reading this thread and decided to chime in about this Stafford Debate..

A lot has been said about Staffords 2011-2013 years, which were the three years he played 16 games prior to this current coaching staff 'fixing him'.

In those 3 years (2011-2013), Stafford Averaged the following:
60.6 Compl %, 4886 yards, 30 TD, 17.3 INT

The League Average for QBS who played more than 10 games for those 3 years (2011-2013)
61 Compl %, 3555 yards, 22.3 TD, 13 INT

The Average of the Top 10 QB's for each of those 3 years (2011-2013)
62.83 Compl %, 4422 yards, 30 TD, 15.5 INT



So essentially, those three years prior to being 'coached up' by Caldwell and Lombardi, Stafford performed (on average) like a top 10 QB.

Last year he performed in the bottom 1/2 of the league, and this year hes dead last...Stafford is not an elite QB by any stretch, but I think he can be above average to good, given the correct coaching...and clearly Caldwell and Lombardi are not those people..

What did you base Top 10 on?

When I look at top 10 for those three years (Based on QB Rating):

I come up with 65.2%, 30.3 TDs and 10.3 INTs. On an average of 515.6 Attempts per year

Stafford on the other hand averaged 674 attempts those three years. So he takes a lot more attempts to put up those numbers. You cut his attempts you cut his production. He produces the same rate the last number of years.

 

[dubbsco]

I was about to post that when I saw your response. 2011 inflates everything so much.

And if that's what you expect him to be, someone who consistently performs in the 11-15 QB range, you'll never have a Super Bowl. Name me teams other that the Ravens with Trent Dilfer that have won the Super Bowl without an elite QB.

 

[tonyballs]

What did you base Top 10 on?

When I look at top 10 for those three years (Based on QB Rating):

I come up with 65.2%, 30.3 TDs and 10.3 INTs. On an average of 515.6 Attempts per year

Stafford on the other hand averaged 674 attempts those three years. So he takes a lot more attempts to put up those numbers. You cut his attempts you cut his production. He produces the same rate the last number of years.

"You cut his attempts you cut his production". That's riveting info, buddy. Glad you pointed that out. Isn't that obvious? Lol

Why do you think he's had so many attempts over the years? Can you answer that?

 

[tbone413]

What did you base Top 10 on?

When I look at top 10 for those three years (Based on QB Rating):

I come up with 65.2%, 30.3 TDs and 10.3 INTs. On an average of 515.6 Attempts per year

Stafford on the other hand averaged 674 attempts those three years. So he takes a lot more attempts to put up those numbers. You cut his attempts you cut his production. He produces the same rate the last number of years.

Looking at the site (below link) looks like it based the rankings off of pass attempts...which is silly (that was the 'generic' setting), so yea my numbers are off a bit. Like you said.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2011/passing.htm

As for the increased attempts = increased production. Yes thats pretty much how it works for all QB's the more you throw the more stats you will have.

I still think the point I was trying to make is accurate - Caldwell and Lombardi have done nothing to help Stafford improve, and have infact hurt his development by forcing him to be something he is not.

 

[tonyballs]

I was about to post that when I saw your response. 2011 inflates everything so much.

And if that's what you expect him to be, someone who consistently performs in the 11-15 QB range, you'll never have a Super Bowl. Name me teams other that the Ravens with Trent Dilfer that have won the Super Bowl without an elite QB.

Seahawks and the Steelers come to mind. Giants too..Cowboys with Aikman

Wilson, Roethlisberger and Eli are not elite in my mind

 

[mhughes0021]

For the 100th time.....Stafford isn't Favre, we know this. They just have a similar style. Staff has been compared to the man since his college days.

Stafford isn't luke mcCown. And I didn't even know he was still in the league.

 

[dubbsco]

Wilson's too young to say whether or not he'll be a good one.

Take a look at Big Ben's career numbers. You'll be surprised how efficient he's been throughout his career. Only two seasons with less than a 90 QBR. There's an on-going debate on whether or not he's a Hall of Famer. When that's being discussed, you can pretty much say he's an elite QB.

Won't argue about Eli.

 

[tbone413]

Seahawks and the Steelers come to mind. Giants too..

Wilson, Roethlisberger and Eli are not elite in my mind

I think you can win a SB with an average QB yes. All of those guys Tony mentioned had (to my memory) average regular seasons, however they had good to excellent post seasons.


Do I think Stafford has the ability to have a stretch of 4 games where he performs at a high level? I still think he does (not with this coaching staff though).

Stafford wont ever be the guy who is the difference between a team going 4-12 and 12-4 like Rodgers, Brady, Manning (of old) are, but those guys are the exception...plenty of teams make playoff runs and make the S/B without having a top 5 QB, it just takes getting hot at the right time...

 

[brewer229]

Looking at the site (below link) looks like it based the rankings off of pass attempts...which is silly (that was the 'generic' setting), so yea my numbers are off a bit. Like you said.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2011/passing.htm

As for the increased attempts = increased production. Yes thats pretty much how it works for all QB's the more you throw the more stats you will have.

I still think the point I was trying to make is accurate - Caldwell and Lombardi have done nothing to help Stafford improve, and have infact hurt his development by forcing him to be something he is not.

My point is if you look at everything as Per Attempt (trying to normalize the numbers) he is essentially the same in 2014 as in 2011-2013 and better in 2014 than he was in 2012-2013. He did have a great 2011.

So if he got the same amount of attempts under Lombardi as he did in prior years he would of put up the same number of stats. So they haven't improved him, but he isn't playing any worse under them. He just is what he is, statistically average and inconsistent. People just thought he was more than he was because he put up a lot of yards. He put up a lot of yards because he threw the ball a lot, not because the system was better for him, just because he had more attempts.
It's tough to win with him, he just isn't efficient in an era where efficiency is key to QB play.

 

[tonyballs]

Wilson's too young to say whether or not he'll be a good one.

Take a look at Big Ben's career numbers. You'll be surprised how efficient he's been throughout his career. Only two seasons with less than a 90 QBR. There's an on-going debate on whether or not he's a Hall of Famer. When that's being discussed, you can pretty much say he's an elite QB.

Won't argue about Eli.

Fair enough. Big Ben will go to the HOF. The numbers are there, but its the rings that guarantee him in. Eli too. And my take on Wilson will always stand pat....he's in the perfect system, even though he's getting a little bit exposed right now in that offense. He's not elite. Doesn't mean i dont like them...just an opinion

Go look at Aikman's numbers and tell me he belongs in the HOF. Not a chance. He was surrounded by superstars his whole career on both sides of the ball. He's the most overrated QB to ever play the game in my mind....