Greatest Leftfielder of All Time

[beez]

But he did take roids and he was the best..thats all I'm saying. What happened did and whether you like it or not he produced. I'm not saying it's fair that he took roids to be the best but it is what it is. If I could have Barry Bonds or Ted Williams in the state they played in the MLB I'm taking Barry.

Yes, but the numbers were inflated. He could not crack the All Century Team...so how is a declining superstar #2 all time without cheating?

Thats what I'm getting at..I'm not going to guess what Barry Bonds would have done or not done without roids..I'm just going to use what he DID do. And what he did do was play like one of the greatest MLB'ers of all time. I'm not justifying what he did, I'm just saying he was great.

 

[Thumb]

Yes, but the numbers were inflated. He could not crack the All Century Team...so how is a declining superstar #2 all time without cheating?

Thats what I'm getting at..I'm not going to guess what Barry Bonds would have done or not done without roids..I'm just going to use what he DID do. And what he did do was play like one of the greatest MLB'ers of all time. I'm not justifying what he did, I'm just saying he was great.

With or without 'Roids Bonds is still not even top 5 players all time, where the **** do you people get the idea that being a slugger makes you great?

1. Cobb - the best hitter to ever play the game, even Babe Ruth said so.

2. Babe Ruth - slugger sure, but also a great pitcher, could be considered #1b to Cobb's 1a.

3. Ted Williams - so much better of a hitter than Bonds it's not close.

4. Willie Mays - not only could he slug HR's as good as Bonds/Ruth/Aaron, he was a freak in the field.

5. Cy Young - OMG! a pitcher??? Yes, Cy was a machine, look up his total games <s>played</s> pitched, it's the single most untouchable record in all of sports.

For all the Hype, bonds was a slugger who likely (definitely) added mass due to Steroid/HgH which makes it easier to muscle out HR's.

To put him at # 2 is a slap in the face to the game of baseball, call him the # 2 slugger of all time if you want, but player? no.

 

[jimrice]

Bonds won 7 MVPs and a host of Gold Gloves. His OPS+ is right up there with the all time greats. Rank them however you want, Bonds is in the conversation whether you like it or not.

Discount him because of the roids, no problem. Attack him on his lack of numbers or accolades? I don't think so.

 

[tomdalton22]

Thats what I'm getting at..I'm not going to guess what Barry Bonds would have done or not done without roids..I'm just going to use what he DID do. And what he did do was play like one of the greatest MLB'ers of all time. I'm not justifying what he did, I'm just saying he was great.

With or without 'Roids Bonds is still not even top 5 players all time, where the **** do you people get the idea that being a slugger makes you great?

1. Cobb - the best hitter to ever play the game, even Babe Ruth said so.

2. Babe Ruth - slugger sure, but also a great pitcher, could be considered #1b to Cobb's 1a.

3. Ted Williams - so much better of a hitter than Bonds it's not close.

4. Willie Mays - not only could he slug HR's as good as Bonds/Ruth/Aaron, he was a freak in the field.

5. Cy Young - OMG! a pitcher??? Yes, Cy was a machine, look up his total games <s>played</s> pitched, it's the single most untouchable record in all of sports.

For all the Hype, bonds was a slugger who likely (definitely) added mass due to Steroid/HgH which makes it easier to muscle out HR's.

To put him at # 2 is a slap in the face to the game of baseball, call him the # 2 slugger of all time if you want, but player? no.

As I said earlier....it is too difficult to compare those guys to the modern day athlete. Most of the hitters back then were hitting batting practice fast balls. How else do you think a guy like Cy Young was able to pitch in all of those games. They didn't pitch like they do now.

 

[zoombabyzoom]

I really don't care about the argument that Bonds was "using" reports say 80% of the players were in his ERA. SO you can't really say he had an extra advantage. Its the same when you talk about the baseball throughout the ages. Pitchers used to throw spitballs (illegal), lots of players did drugs (illegal), steal signs (illegal), pine tar, corked bats, throw games, etc, etc.

 

[beez]

Career
.298 hitter
2227 runs (3rd)
5976 totl bases (4th)
1.051 OPS (4th all time)
Only struck out 100 times once (Rookie year 102)
2558 career walks
512 steals (33rd)
1996 RBIS (4th)
762 Home runs (1st)
77 triples
601 doubles
688 intentional walks (1st)
444 OBP (6th)

159 assists (4th for a lf since 1954)

14 all star games (I think)
7 time MVP
1st in WAR 9 times (in the top 5 16 times) 2nd for a career
12 silver sluggers
6th in defensive war (1st 3 times, top 6 6 times)

had season of these numbers

avg/hr/rbis/bb/k's/sb

.301/33/114/93/83/52 (1990)

.292/25/116/107/73/43 (1991)

.311/34/103/127/69/39 (1992)

.336/46/123/126/79/29 (1993)

.312/37/81/74/43/29 (only 474 PAs in 1994)

.294/33/104/120/83/31 (1995)

.308/42/129/151/76/40 (1996)

.291/40/101/145/87/37 (1997)

.303/37/122/130/92/28 (1998)

.306/49/106/117/77/11 (2000)

.328/73/137/177/93/13 (2001)

.370/46/110/198/47/9 (2002)

.341/45/90/148/58/7 (2003)

.362/45/101/232/41/6 (2004)

Possibly saw fewer hittable pitches than anyone in history and still put up these video game numbers. He was also a good fielder. Don't tell me I'm an idiot for considering him as a contender for one of the top players of all time. Morals aside, this guy was ****ing great.



.

 

[tycobb420]

Bonds won 7 MVPs and a host of Gold Gloves. His OPS+ is right up there with the all time greats. Rank them however you want, Bonds is in the conversation whether you like it or not.

Discount him because of the roids, no problem. Attack him on his lack of numbers or accolades? I don't think so.

If he was truly in the conversation, he'd have made the All Century Team. He did not. There were 10 outfielders selected ahead of him. (He was a finalist). Without roids, he is a 3x MVP winner and his OPS+ is not right up there. He had numbers before the steroids, BUT no one claimed he was in the same zip code as Ruth.

 

[tycobb420]

Career
.298 hitter
2227 runs (3rd)
5976 totl bases (4th)
1.051 OPS (4th all time)
Only struck out 100 times once (Rookie year 102)
2558 career walks
512 steals (33rd)
1996 RBIS (4th)
762 Home runs (1st)
77 triples
601 doubles
688 intentional walks (1st)
444 OBP (6th)

159 assists (4th for a lf since 1954)

14 all star games (I think)
7 time MVP
1st in WAR 9 times (in the top 5 16 times) 2nd for a career
12 silver sluggers
6th in defensive war (1st 3 times, top 6 6 times)

had season of these numbers

avg/hr/rbis/bb/k's/sb

.301/33/114/93/83/52 (1990)

.292/25/116/107/73/43 (1991)

.311/34/103/127/69/39 (1992)

.336/46/123/126/79/29 (1993)

.312/37/81/74/43/29 (only 474 PAs in 1994)

.294/33/104/120/83/31 (1995)

.308/42/129/151/76/40 (1996)

.291/40/101/145/87/37 (1997)

.303/37/122/130/92/28 (1998)

.306/49/106/117/77/11 (2000)

.328/73/137/177/93/13 (2001)

.370/46/110/198/47/9 (2002)

.341/45/90/148/58/7 (2003)

.362/45/101/232/41/6 (2004)

Possibly saw fewer hittable pitches than anyone in history and still put up these video game numbers. He was also a good fielder. Don't tell me I'm an idiot for considering him as a contender for one of the top players of all time. Morals aside, this guy was ****ing great.



.

He starting putting up cartoon numbers at a time when he should have been declining. I heard Billy Beane allude to this when scouting players that are older. He essentially said you have to toss out the numbers because of the steroids and look at the previous era. Again, without roids, he is not in the conversation and was not even considered the best of his generation (Junior was). 73 home runs at age 36? That's a joke. 321 home runs from age 35-42? That's as real as a porn star's boobies. You can probably lop 200 off that total and that is where he would have been without cheating.

 

[zoombabyzoom]

Again, everyone was using so everyone is on the same playing field.

 

[tycobb420]

Rich what? Richmond![/color]]Again, everyone was using so everyone is on the same playing field.

No everyone was "not using." There were players not juicing. Canseco said 80%, which is probably high, but even if correct, there is still 20% not using. Caminiti claimed 50%. Schilling guessed 50%. That still means half the players were clean. Additionally, it is most likely that the worst abusers were the guys trying to hold onto a major league roster spot rather than the stars. Of course, many stars did in fact use (bonds, sosa, mcgwire, palmeiro, etc).

 

[batcave76]

For me if it comes down to picking someone like Ted Williams, the "Splendid Splinter", as against punks like Bonds or Henderson, it's no contest. I remember when Henderson was offered a multi mill contract and when asked why he didn't accept, said he was insulted. These 2 should have played in the NBA.

 

[Mitchrapp]

With or without 'Roids Bonds is still not even top 5 players all time, where the **** do you people get the idea that being a slugger makes you great?

1. Cobb - the best hitter to ever play the game, even Babe Ruth said so.

2. Babe Ruth - slugger sure, but also a great pitcher, could be considered #1b to Cobb's 1a.

3. Ted Williams - so much better of a hitter than Bonds it's not close.

4. Willie Mays - not only could he slug HR's as good as Bonds/Ruth/Aaron, he was a freak in the field.

5. Cy Young - OMG! a pitcher??? Yes, Cy was a machine, look up his total games <s>played</s> pitched, it's the single most untouchable record in all of sports.

For all the Hype, bonds was a slugger who likely (definitely) added mass due to Steroid/HgH which makes it easier to muscle out HR's.

To put him at # 2 is a slap in the face to the game of baseball, call him the # 2 slugger of all time if you want, but player? no.

As I said earlier....it is too difficult to compare those guys to the modern day athlete. Most of the hitters back then were hitting batting practice fast balls. How else do you think a guy like Cy Young was able to pitch in all of those games. They didn't pitch like they do now.

On the other side they didn't have ways to watch film of opposing players like they do now, no fangraphs and charts and TV. They might be more physical gifted but they Also have lots of advantages that they didnt have back then.

With regards o Bonds, he was a hell of a player before roids and MVP worthy. Too bad he roided up but as it was mentioned, 73 home runs, at his age plus the numbers he put up in his late years. No way top 10.

 

[kalinecountry]

Give the old timers jets to travel in, legal vitamins and nutrients, todays excercise equipment, 12" gloves, etc.
give the recent era and todays players less quality baseballs, tiny gloves, travel by busses and trains, geritol and sasparilla drinks,
and lets see what happens.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Good old sasparilla.

 

[tomdalton22]

KalineCountry[/color]]Give the old timers jets to travel in, legal vitamins and nutrients, todays excercise equipment, 12" gloves, etc.
give the recent era and todays players less quality baseballs, tiny gloves, travel by busses and trains, geritol and sasparilla drinks,
and lets see what happens.

All of those are good points....and of course all of the technology works against the modern player too (pitchers knowing the batters) Another on the side of modern day players being better is the relief pitcher. Back in the day Tedd Williams got to see the same pitcher 3-5 times in a game. Today the relief pitcher and closer have a huge impact on the offensive stats.

 

[Mitchrapp]

KalineCountry[/color]]Give the old timers jets to travel in, legal vitamins and nutrients, todays excercise equipment, 12" gloves, etc.
give the recent era and todays players less quality baseballs, tiny gloves, travel by busses and trains, geritol and sasparilla drinks,
and lets see what happens.

All of those are good points....and of course all of the technology works against the modern player too (pitchers knowing the batters) Another on the side of modern day players being better is the relief pitcher. Back in the day Tedd Williams got to see the same pitcher 3-5 times in a game. Today the relief pitcher and closer have a huge impact on the offensive stats.

Advantage hitters, right? I mean every team wants to get to the bullpen.

 

[tomdalton22]

Mitch[/color]]

All of those are good points....and of course all of the technology works against the modern player too (pitchers knowing the batters) Another on the side of modern day players being better is the relief pitcher. Back in the day Tedd Williams got to see the same pitcher 3-5 times in a game. Today the relief pitcher and closer have a huge impact on the offensive stats.

Advantage hitters, right? I mean every team wants to get to the bullpen.

I don't think so. I think more often than not it would be easier for the batter to hit against the starter that he has faced 3 or 4 times already. Also they go with the lefty / righty match ups, set up guys, closers. I also think that the wide variety of pitches thrown now makes it more difficult. Splitters, cutters, change ups, sliders, curve balls and almost everybody throws 92-96 MPH.

 

[beez]

Like I said, I'm not going to guess what Bonds would have or wouldn't have done without Roids...but with them he was one of the top players to ever put in on a jersey. He probably didnt make the century team because of roids/spite. 73 homeruns at age 36 may be outlandish BUT IT HAPPENED. He may not have been as good without roids BUT HE TOOK THEM...and when comparing his numbers to all time greats he's in the ocnversation as one of the best players ever. PERIOD

 

[tycobb420]

Like I said, I'm not going to guess what Bonds would have or wouldn't have done without Roids...but with them he was one of the top players to ever put in on a jersey. He probably didnt make the century team because of roids/spite. 73 homeruns at age 36 may be outlandish BUT IT HAPPENED. He may not have been as good without roids BUT HE TOOK THEM...and when comparing his numbers to all time greats he's in the ocnversation as one of the best players ever. PERIOD

When I was in 9th grade, I cheated on a Spanish test and passed the class. I was therefore qualified to take Spanish II. It happened. Period. But my Spanish knowledge was limited to taco grande. I would have been exposed as a fraud in SPII. Likewise, Bonds has been exposed as a fraud.

The AC Team came out before the roid controversy and Mark McGwire made it.

 

[kalinecountry]

This is why I try to never get into arguments about players that were caught or implied to do ped's etc.

Fans/posters like them for varied reasons. I can and try to respect that.

I just won't pick them on my all time teams or best ever.
Manny, McGwire, Bonds, A-Rod, or any other player that is caught, admitted, or implied.

Great players with or without, but 'for Me' the code of baseball is to "play the game to the best of your natural ability".

and it doesn't make me think any less of any poster that likes and stands up for these players.