Iglasias fight

[kingofdetroit57]

Once more, I didn't say he was lackadaisical, but the other article I posted says he was...

http://www.csnne.com/blog/red-sox-talk/pawsox-iglesias-benched-disciplinary-reasons

Do yourself a favor and read it before you tell me again that there was never any quote saying he had a bad attitude, didn't hustle, was lackadaisical, or whatever else has been batted around here. It should honestly take you about one minute to get through...


PawSox' Iglesias benched for disciplinary reasons

BOSTON -- Shortstop Jose Iglesias has been out of the Pawtucket Red Sox lineup for the last three days for disciplinary reasons after manager Gary DiSarcina pulled the infielder from a game Saturday after he twice failed to run out ground balls.

The Red Sox have had some concern with Iglesias in the past over his attitude and effort following demotions from the parent club.

When Iglesias was optioned back to Pawtucket last month following the activated of starting shortstop Stephen Drew, the Red Sox were braced from some fallout and disappointment.

Iglesias actually responded well initially, which one baseball source attributed to the presence of David Ortiz. Ortiz has served as a mentor to Iglesias and the source believes that Iglesias chose not to pout while Ortiz was with the club.

More recently, however, Iglesias has expressed his frustration over being blocked by Drew's presence and it has affected his play and effort level at times.

Red Sox manager John Farrell was asked about Iglesias's absence from the lineup and addressed it in general terms.

"In the reports from the Triple A staff," said Farrell, "they thought it was best that he needed a couple of days to regroup, and kind of get back to what's allowed him to be a very good player, experience success. He's dealing with some things."

 

[Thundercats]

No, I didn't.

But at least I got him to shut up for a bit.

You give yourself more credit than you're worth. I could look up exactly how much credit, but you'd excuse it somehow. Or I could give my simple opinion.. but you'd probably rebuttal with stats. :bs:

 

[kingofdetroit57]

Rebbiv, how would you characterize a player who is not running out groundballs? What about the concerns over his attitude and effort following demotions? Do the words "fallout and disappointment", "frustration", or "pout" raise alarms? How about it affecting his play? Is manager John Farrell's quote not credible enough?

 

[Thumb]

That 4 months of data is sure stacking up against me.

You were the guy who told us all that pitchers had figured him out (after he was in Detroit), and how he wasn't going to get any more IF base hits because of it. That he would regress to what his minor league numbers were, and would not hit at all.

And yet...


*Crickets*

 

[Thundercats]

You were the guy who told us all that pitchers had figured him out (after he was in Detroit), and how he wasn't going to get any more IF base hits because of it. That he would regress to what his minor league numbers were, and would not hit at all.

And yet...


*Crickets*

*4 Months*.. see, I can use douchy symbols, too.

 

[Rebbiv]

I never said he was lackadaisical, Rebbiv.

The Providence Journal article is no longer on their website. I'm sure it can be found elsewhere or for a cost, but the lead in is clearly provided and it talks about Iggy's attitude being addressed by Pedroia.

As far as making it personal, I apologize for calling you a clown, but you are so quick to want to tell me I'm wrong without reading what I posted or linked that it's getting a little silly. Taking 5sec to research what Muck Rack was and another 5sec to see that the article was from an actual news source probably would have prevented your earlier response. If you are adamant that I'm just wrong, so be it. I really don't care and won't lose sleep over it. We can agree to disagree.

Background: McCann confronts Iglesias in the dugout concerning Iglesias' apparent lackadaisical play in the field. True?

So what we are trying to do is further the discussion in this thread, no?

There has been some sidetracks along the way, but most of this thread has been about the incident on the field and in the dugout. Most of the sidetrack dealt with the issue of McCann being the one calling Iggy out. But that isn't my concern with what you were posting.

KC posted a link concerning an article from Motorcitybengals. It is a editorial/blog piece and was just adding fuel to fire. And if you see a post I made, I said that I didn't discount that Iggy might be ****y.

Then came your post about maybe the Boston leadership had something to do with Iggy. You even added things like "Francona was popping pills and living in a hotel while his marriage was on the rocks". How does that information have anything to do with Iggy's lackadaisical play or even the fact he might be ****y? And I initially was trying to point out your take on Iggy in Boston was based a mere sample rate compared to his time here in Detroit

Most of the stuff you were posting was his attitude in having Stephen Drew playing in front of him. Him being ****y I guess. But it does not support any issues of him lackadaisical play, which is what the dugout incident was about.

What it might explain, his reluctance having a rookie calling him out. Especially when that rookie isn't all that great.

 

[Rebbiv]

Rebbiv, how would you characterize a player who is not running out groundballs? What about the concerns over his attitude and effort following demotions? Do the words "fallout and disappointment", "frustration", or "pout" raise alarms? How about it affecting his play? Is manager John Farrell's quote not credible enough?

Has any of that been used since arriving in Detroit?

You already brought up the Boston leadership issue. I spent 20 years in the US Army. I can tell you stories of character issues without proper leadership. But, given proper leadership, a soldier once classified as "marginal" has been known to excel.

Additionally, did Iggy learn from his time in Boston. The assumption might be that he didn't. But what if he did?

I have more questions than I have answers. Until there is a "direct quote" from someone, I treat everything I read or hear with skepticism. I challenge anyone trying to "promote" hearsay or rumors.

 

[kingofdetroit57]

Has any of that been used since arriving in Detroit?

You already brought up the Boston leadership issue. I spent 20 years in the US Army. I can tell you stories of character issues without proper leadership. But, given proper leadership, a soldier once classified as "marginal" has been known to excel.

Additionally, did Iggy learn from his time in Boston. The assumption might be that he didn't. But what if he did?

I have more questions than I have answers. Until there is a "direct quote" from someone, I treat everything I read or hear with skepticism. I challenge anyone trying to "promote" hearsay or rumors.

You are talking in circles, man. You and Thumb both claimed that there weren't articles about Iggy having a bad attitude, being ****y, being lackadaisical, etc. and that people were spreading unsubstantiated rumors. I went and found you a bunch of articles to refute the assertions that these were unsubstantiated rumors. You clearly didn't bother to read them, questioned the sources, and claimed there were no actual quotes on the matter. Again, I challenged you to actually read what I linked, outlined the relevant sections, and pointed you to direct quotes from Pedroia and John Farrell. That's apparently still not up to your exceedingly high journalistic standards for sources and quotes, and you are back to asking me why I posted what I did about Francona. I already answered that question, and explained why it was relevant. Again, you seem to want to chalk it up as unsubstantiated rumors when I have given you multiple reports stating that Francona was a pill popper and was checked out near the end of his run in Boston, and how that's at least somewhat relevant to Iglesias's run in Boston. What I'm posting isn't hearsay or rumor, it was widely reported by a number of different established media outlets that require fact checking before publishing stories. If it were unsubstantiated hearsay or rumor as you still seem to want to assert, you better believe that someone would have been sued for libel or slander, particularly with regard to the Francona stuff.

On the Francona topic, which was a very minor part of one response of mine, here's a link to an article where Francona says he was hurt by the inclusion of his use of prescription pain pills in the article and the assertion that it impaired his ability to manage. He clearly felt that it hurt his reputation and chances at other jobs after Boston, but no where did he deny using pain meds during that period when things went to hell in Boston.

http://espn.go.com/boston/mlb/story...ry-francona-reportedly-upset-drug-allegations

Here's an article detailing the evaporation of trust between the Red Sox and Francona, and the past history he's had with taking Percocet and other strong pain meds. His daughter and doctor clearly thought it was enough of a problem to intervene and to alert MLB. Tito entered an MLB drug treatment program thereafter.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/...ry-francona/I39FY7mEoboqFmRmECSICJ/story.html

Again, I'm probably just spreading unsubstantiated rumors though, right?

 

[kalinecountry]

Not taking the time to read the boston globe story on Francona's percocet/percodan problem. But it was a known fact that he had some serious back problems. Those narcotics just mask the pain and turn a person's stomach into concrete.

I worked with several guys who took them not just for health issues, but for recreation, washing them down with beers and hard booze. Like M and M's.

I would tell them "you can go a week without sex, but you can's go a week without taking a dump". They wouldn't stop, one friend I worked with for over 30 years died 4 years ago in his early 60's and was still hooked.

When I had my shoulder and rotator cuff surgery 10 years ago last week, I had to take them for a few days. and then dumped the rest of the bottle. Kept eating fruit, yogurts, dried prunes just to go.



With this summer of discontent, with this trainwreck of a ball club, I am waiting to see what moves they will make. Who stays and he goes.

 

[Mitchrapp]

You give yourself more credit than you're worth. I could look up exactly how much credit, but you'd excuse it somehow. Or I could give my simple opinion.. but you'd probably rebuttal with stats. :bs:

Yeah those silly stats - lets not let them get in the way :hehe:

 

[Rebbiv]

You are talking in circles, man. You and Thumb both claimed that there weren't articles about Iggy having a bad attitude, being ****y, being lackadaisical, etc. and that people were spreading unsubstantiated rumors. I went and found you a bunch of articles to refute the assertions that these were unsubstantiated rumors. You clearly didn't bother to read them, questioned the sources, and claimed there were no actual quotes on the matter. Again, I challenged you to actually read what I linked, outlined the relevant sections, and pointed you to direct quotes from Pedroia and John Farrell. That's apparently still not up to your exceedingly high journalistic standards for sources and quotes, and you are back to asking me why I posted what I did about Francona. I already answered that question, and explained why it was relevant. Again, you seem to want to chalk it up as unsubstantiated rumors when I have given you multiple reports stating that Francona was a pill popper and was checked out near the end of his run in Boston, and how that's at least somewhat relevant to Iglesias's run in Boston. What I'm posting isn't hearsay or rumor, it was widely reported by a number of different established media outlets that require fact checking before publishing stories. If it were unsubstantiated hearsay or rumor as you still seem to want to assert, you better believe that someone would have been sued for libel or slander, particularly with regard to the Francona stuff.

On the Francona topic, which was a very minor part of one response of mine, here's a link to an article where Francona says he was hurt by the inclusion of his use of prescription pain pills in the article and the assertion that it impaired his ability to manage. He clearly felt that it hurt his reputation and chances at other jobs after Boston, but no where did he deny using pain meds during that period when things went to hell in Boston.

http://espn.go.com/boston/mlb/story...ry-francona-reportedly-upset-drug-allegations

Here's an article detailing the evaporation of trust between the Red Sox and Francona, and the past history he's had with taking Percocet and other strong pain meds. His daughter and doctor clearly thought it was enough of a problem to intervene and to alert MLB. Tito entered an MLB drug treatment program thereafter.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/...ry-francona/I39FY7mEoboqFmRmECSICJ/story.html

Again, I'm probably just spreading unsubstantiated rumors though, right?

Again, Iggy played in a total of 10 games (6 in May, 4 in September) when Francona was manager, starting in only 1. How did that limited time with Francona influence Iglesias' behavior? Nothing you posted demonstrated that except your own inference.

I fully understand that Francona was taking pain meds and was going through a divorce. BOS finished 90-72 that year. How did his behavior effect the rest of the team is a separate issue if any.

You posted exactly two links in your first post.

Neither article contains anything about Iglesias' lackadaisical play. They deal primarily with Pedroia taking him under his wing. There was no direct quotes dealing with Iggy having any negative attitude or behavior, although the first author implied it.

Then you posted your own diatribe on the situation, inferring it was BOS's leadership that was the cause. Again, based on what? So you posted a bunch of links documenting the well known issues BOS had. How did that effect Iglesias?

And then finally, you post two links on Iglesias' bad attitude. The first dealt with how Iglesias handled being demoted to the minors in 2013 to start the season. That piece was written on 9 May, and Iglesias was playing in the majors by 24 May. The 2nd link was just a rehash of the first. Again, they both dealt with his disappointment in being demoted to the minors. That he handled it well at the beginning, but was not running out balls so he was benched.

This is your proof of lackadaisical play? One incident.

And FYI...I read all the articles. You making it a point that I didn't is disconcerting. Maybe I don't infer as much as you do. Maybe I have a different reading comprehension level than you do. We don't agree on this.

Nothing you posted has changed my opinion on Iglesias. In fact, I respect him even more based on what you posted.

 

[biggunsbob]

It is pretty easy to see that Iggy does seem to have a different attitude then some on the team. Hopefully he is our SS for a long time but it is pretty easy to see that he can be a little bitch at times... i read the article and he did and maybe still does have some growing up to do.. Hopefully he will because he s a darn good ballplayer..

 

[sggatecl]

If he isn't breaking the law, I don't really give a damn to be honest. Until "nice guy runs scored" is a legitimate statistic, play on the field is what matters to me.

 

[Thumb]

You are talking in circles, man. You and Thumb both claimed that there weren't articles about Iggy having a bad attitude, being ****y, being lackadaisical, etc.

Wrong.


I specifically said, more than once, I was talking about these supposed "issues between Igleasis and Pedroia".

Hence why I kept making references to you arguing oranges when I walk talking about apples.


Reading comprehension man, try it.

 

[kingofdetroit57]

I never said there was an issue between Iglesias and Pedroia. In fact, there is clear evidence to the contrary. I'm not sure why you think I'm arguing that particular point.

I'll quote this for you again, Thumb. I was never arguing that there was an issue between Iglesias and Pedroia. I responded to the assertions that there was no evidence of Iglesias having attitude issues prior to coming here.

 

[Rebbiv]

I'll quote this for you again, Thumb. I was never arguing that there was an issue between Iglesias and Pedroia. I responded to the assertions that there was no evidence of Iglesias having attitude issues prior to coming here.

You still don't get it. Your first two links were exactly the links detailing Iglesias and Pedroia's interaction. So it obviously confused someone.

 

[kingofdetroit57]

Again, Iggy played in a total of 10 games (6 in May, 4 in September) when Francona was manager, starting in only 1. How did that limited time with Francona influence Iglesias' behavior? Nothing you posted demonstrated that except your own inference.

I fully understand that Francona was taking pain meds and was going through a divorce. BOS finished 90-72 that year. How did his behavior effect the rest of the team is a separate issue if any.

You posted exactly two links in your first post.

Neither article contains anything about Iglesias' lackadaisical play. They deal primarily with Pedroia taking him under his wing. There was no direct quotes dealing with Iggy having any negative attitude or behavior, although the first author implied it.

Then you posted your own diatribe on the situation, inferring it was BOS's leadership that was the cause. Again, based on what? So you posted a bunch of links documenting the well known issues BOS had. How did that effect Iglesias?

And then finally, you post two links on Iglesias' bad attitude. The first dealt with how Iglesias handled being demoted to the minors in 2013 to start the season. That piece was written on 9 May, and Iglesias was playing in the majors by 24 May. The 2nd link was just a rehash of the first. Again, they both dealt with his disappointment in being demoted to the minors. That he handled it well at the beginning, but was not running out balls so he was benched.

This is your proof of lackadaisical play? One incident.

And FYI...I read all the articles. You making it a point that I didn't is disconcerting. Maybe I don't infer as much as you do. Maybe I have a different reading comprehension level than you do. We don't agree on this.

Nothing you posted has changed my opinion on Iglesias. In fact, I respect him even more based on what you posted.

There was obviously more exposure and interaction between the two than just 10 games in 2011. Iglesias was their big hot shot prospect back then, so he got lots of exposure to the team and the manager prior to coming up in 2011.

Here's an article from Spring Training 2010 where Francona appears to address Iglesia's disappointment at not making the big league team...

http://nesn.com/2010/03/terry-francona-this-isnt-supposed-to-be-a-bad-day-for-jose-iglesias/

Here's another one early 2010 article about Iggy's desire to be a major leaguer, his need to learn how to fit in in the clubhouse, particularly seeking out veterans like Ortiz, Pedroia, Scutaro, VMart, and Velazquez, Velazquez mentoring him to not be such a showboat. It also include some comments on Iggy from Francona. Velazquez comments about how well he took the constructive criticism too, which is good to see...

http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/mlb/columns/story?columnist=mcdonald_joe&id=4958648

 

[kingofdetroit57]

You still don't get it. Your first two links were exactly the links detailing Iglesias and Pedroia's interaction. So it obviously confused someone.

I have clearly said multiple times in this thread that I was never of the belief that there were issues between Iglesias and Pedroia and that there was plenty of evidence to the contrary, which was detailed in the articles I linked about Pedroia mentoring Iglesias. For some reason, you and Thumb still think that I'm arguing that particular point. I am not, nor was I ever arguing it.

 

[Rebbiv]

There was obviously more exposure and interaction between the two than just 10 games in 2011. Iglesias was their big hot shot prospect back then, so he got lots of exposure to the team and the manager prior to coming up in 2011.

Here's an article from Spring Training 2010 where Francona appears to address Iglesia's disappointment at not making the big league team...

http://nesn.com/2010/03/terry-francona-this-isnt-supposed-to-be-a-bad-day-for-jose-iglesias/

Here's another one early 2010 article about Iggy's desire to be a major leaguer, his need to learn how to fit in in the clubhouse, particularly seeking out veterans like Ortiz, Pedroia, Scutaro, VMart, and Velazquez, Velazquez mentoring him to not be such a showboat. It also include some comments on Iggy from Francona. Velazquez comments about how well he took the constructive criticism too, which is good to see...

http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/mlb/columns/story?columnist=mcdonald_joe&id=4958648

I don't see the same things. I see an article about a young Cuban ballplayer getting instructed on the proper way to play baseball. The etiquette if you will and not too be too flashy. Again, I am not sure this points to an issue even as far back as 2010.

And yes I read the articles. I just don't see the same things you are. This may very well be subjective.

 

[kingofdetroit57]

I don't see the same things. I see an article about a young Cuban ballplayer getting instructed on the proper way to play baseball. The etiquette if you will and not too be too flashy. Again, I am not sure this points to an issue even as far back as 2010.

And yes I read the articles. I just don't see the same things you are. This may very well be subjective.

I linked them for two reasons: 1) to demonstrate to you that the relationship with and influence of Francona extended well beyond ten games in 2011, and 2) because they seem to reference the need to manage Iggy's attitude, for him to tone down the hot dogging in the field, his need to learn how to fit in, and his tendency to seek out established vets for advice and mentoring... all of which directly support things discussed in this thread.