Leyland lost game 4

[tomdalton22]

[quote="biggunsbob":js02zs37]The bad thing is Jim does not think he had a sub-par game when it is clear he really did..


Tigers don

 

[biggunsbob]

Send Miguel was beyond Dumb verses Cruz...

 

[biggunsbob]

KC found this nugget... Finally a writer with some balls. Over in the Tiger team notes... Thanks KC!!!

Terry Foster

Delmon Young too hurt to help Tigers

Detroit -- It's time to pull the plug on outfielder Delmon Young. He's injured. He can't move. He can't run. He can't bat. He's in pain.
There is absolutely no reason for manager Jim Leyland to stick with Young (strained oblique), who went from the hospital ward to the starting lineup. Is Don Kelly really that bad?
I don't care if Texas started left-hander Matt Harrison and Leyland wanted more right-handed bats in the game.
Putting too much trust in Young might have cost the Tigers the game. He failed to deliver a winning hit or sacrifice fly in the eighth inning in the Tigers' 7-3 loss in 11 innings.
This isn't the Young who came in from Minnesota to give Detroit a spark during the regular season. He's a broken-down player who is pieced together with duct tape. You don't have to be an insider or a baseball man to see Young is hurting. You can see it at the plate, where he was 0-for-4 with two strikeouts.
Production what matters
You can see it in the way he fielded (if you want to call it that) a sixth-inning run-scoring double by Ian Kinsler. The ball hit the wall in foul territory and bounced through Young.
But Leyland praised him for a couple of good at-bats and said he came close to ripping a pitch that he fouled off earlier.
This isn't a game about close-but-no-cigar.
It is about production.
Young came up to the plate with the hopes of Detroit on his bat in the eighth inning with runners on first and third. It was not a bad effort on Young's part, considering his health. He lofted a fly ball to right field, but Nelson Cruz gunned down Miguel Cabrera at the plate.
It's not Young's fault it appeared as if Cabrera tagged up from the left-field foul pole.
The bottom line is, Young did not get the job done, and this one play played an important role in the Tigers digging themselves a 3-1 hole in the American League Championship Series.
"I am not going to hit for Delmon Young," Leyland said. "He's our third hitter. He's a professional hitter. He's one of the better hitters. No, I wouldn't even think about that."
Why not Kelly?
And here's another head-scratcher:
After the inning, Leyland moved Ryan Raburn from right field to left and replaced Young in the lineup with Kelly, who went to right.
Why not put the bat in Kelly's hands? He was hitting .333 and I'd take my chances with him over Young, who is hitless in eight at-bats in the ALCS.
A number of you will blame third base coach Gene Lamont for sending Cabrera. But you knew the Tigers were going to force the Rangers to make a play.
"You make him throw him out at the plate," Leyland said. "It was the right call."
Young should be applauded for giving it the old college try. But he is neither a plus defender nor a plus hitter now.
This was the Tigers' best chance in a critical spot in the eighth? I am not buying it.

 

[tomdalton22]

biggunsbob[/color]]KC found this nugget... Finally a writer with some balls. Over in the Tiger team notes... Thanks KC!!!

Terry Foster

Delmon Young too hurt to help Tigers

Detroit -- It's time to pull the plug on outfielder Delmon Young. He's injured. He can't move. He can't run. He can't bat. He's in pain.
There is absolutely no reason for manager Jim Leyland to stick with Young (strained oblique), who went from the hospital ward to the starting lineup. Is Don Kelly really that bad?
I don't care if Texas started left-hander Matt Harrison and Leyland wanted more right-handed bats in the game.
Putting too much trust in Young might have cost the Tigers the game. He failed to deliver a winning hit or sacrifice fly in the eighth inning in the Tigers' 7-3 loss in 11 innings.
This isn't the Young who came in from Minnesota to give Detroit a spark during the regular season. He's a broken-down player who is pieced together with duct tape. You don't have to be an insider or a baseball man to see Young is hurting. You can see it at the plate, where he was 0-for-4 with two strikeouts.
Production what matters
You can see it in the way he fielded (if you want to call it that) a sixth-inning run-scoring double by Ian Kinsler. The ball hit the wall in foul territory and bounced through Young.
But Leyland praised him for a couple of good at-bats and said he came close to ripping a pitch that he fouled off earlier.
This isn't a game about close-but-no-cigar.
It is about production.
Young came up to the plate with the hopes of Detroit on his bat in the eighth inning with runners on first and third. It was not a bad effort on Young's part, considering his health. He lofted a fly ball to right field, but Nelson Cruz gunned down Miguel Cabrera at the plate.
It's not Young's fault it appeared as if Cabrera tagged up from the left-field foul pole.
The bottom line is, Young did not get the job done, and this one play played an important role in the Tigers digging themselves a 3-1 hole in the American League Championship Series.
"I am not going to hit for Delmon Young," Leyland said. "He's our third hitter. He's a professional hitter. He's one of the better hitters. No, I wouldn't even think about that."
Why not Kelly?
And here's another head-scratcher:
After the inning, Leyland moved Ryan Raburn from right field to left and replaced Young in the lineup with Kelly, who went to right.
Why not put the bat in Kelly's hands? He was hitting .333 and I'd take my chances with him over Young, who is hitless in eight at-bats in the ALCS.
A number of you will blame third base coach Gene Lamont for sending Cabrera. But you knew the Tigers were going to force the Rangers to make a play.
"You make him throw him out at the plate," Leyland said. "It was the right call."
Young should be applauded for giving it the old college try. But he is neither a plus defender nor a plus hitter now.
This was the Tigers' best chance in a critical spot in the eighth? I am not buying it.

Yup....that is the move that should be criticized...him not pinch hitting for Young. Of course....Terry Foster is writing to please the readers who are like most on this board...more willing to blame JL than the players that don't perform.

 

[beez]

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2011_10_12_texmlb_detmlb_1&mode=box

Says here Valverde lost game 4...end thread.

 

[biggunsbob]

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2011_10_12_texmlb_detmlb_1&mode=box

Says here Valverde lost game 4...end thread.

He had one great inning asking for two is just a questionable move considering you had Coke who could have come in and started the inning verses Hamilton... Plus we all knew Josh was swinging at the
first pitch but Jose i guess.

 

[hellifino]

"I am not going to hit for Delmon Young," Leyland said. "He's our third hitter. He's a professional hitter. He's one of the better hitters. No, I wouldn't even think about that."


if he was 100 % healthy yes, but Jimmy boy he was hurt, that's why you had him batting 5th remember.

 

[Thumb]

How can anyone call Terry Foster a writer with balls?

Ever listen to Valenti put him in his place on a regular basis?

Not that Valenti is usually (ever) right, but Terry almost always caves in and agrees.

That guy has no balls or backbone.

He's writing to popular opinion.

 

[spockmaster]

Make no mistake about it, the offense lost this game. 5 hits in 11 innings is pathetic. Any other mistakes that happened in this game were just add-ons to an abysmal offensive showing.


That being said, Leyland and Lamont certainly didnt help the cause either. I watched the replay and Cabrera was out by 15 feet...you dont send him there, that was just stupid. Cruz has probably the best OF arm in the game and Cabrera isnt exactly fast, its not something you should test in that situation.

I also dont think he should have sent Jackson. Napoli has a decent arm and the last thing you want to do late in a close game is make an out on the basepaths, especially with the best hitter in the game in the hole. I guess we can at least be thankful he didn't make Raburn bunt.

Then came his 2 blunders in the 11th...you CAN NOT put Valverde out there for a 2nd inning on his third day of pitching in a row, thats just asking for trouble. We may not have the deepest bullpen, but its not like we have noone out there either. Id rather take my chances with a fresh, decent reliever than your gassed closer.

Walking Beltre was just plain retarded. The guy is hurting, was 0-4, and struck out in his last AB. Napoli, on the other hand, was not only one of the hottest hitters in baseball after the ASB, but he rarely hits into DPs, not to mention the fact that you have their current most dangerous hitter Cruz coming up if you fail to get a DP.




I refrained from posting things last night because I was REALLY pissed off and didnt want to just go off on rants. I tried to just analyze the decisions they made and still come up with the fact that he made 4 big mistakes tonight. The loss is still on the offense though.

 

[biggunsbob]

Make no mistake about it, the offense lost this game. 5 hits in 11 innings is pathetic. Any other mistakes that happened in this game were just add-ons to an abysmal offensive showing.


That being said, Leyland and Lamont certainly didnt help the cause either. I watched the replay and Cabrera was out by 15 feet...you dont send him there, that was just stupid. Cruz has probably the best OF arm in the game and Cabrera isnt exactly fast, its not something you should test in that situation.

I also dont think he should have sent Jackson. Napoli has a decent arm and the last thing you want to do late in a close game is make an out on the basepaths, especially with the best hitter in the game in the hole. I guess we can at least be thankful he didn't make Raburn bunt.

Then came his 2 blunders in the 11th...you CAN NOT put Valverde out there for a 2nd inning on his third day of pitching in a row, thats just asking for trouble. We may not have the deepest bullpen, but its not like we have noone out there either. Id rather take my chances with a fresh, decent reliever than your gassed closer.

Walking Beltre was just plain retarded. The guy is hurting, was 0-4, and struck out in his last AB. Napoli, on the other hand, was not only one of the hottest hitters in baseball after the ASB, but he rarely hits into DPs, not to mention the fact that you have their current most dangerous hitter Cruz coming up if you fail to get a DP.




I refrained from posting things last night because I was REALLY pissed off and didnt want to just go off on rants. I tried to just analyze the decisions they made and still come up with the fact that he made 4 big mistakes tonight. The loss is still on the offense though.

I couldn't refrain. I just don't understand how anyone could think jim and his staff had a good game last night.... I hate LaRussa but i bet he steals that game last night somehow.. Jim needed to help his team win last night.... i agree with everything you said...

 

[jimrice]

It's more results based analysis on Delmon. If he has a good game, he's clutch, a gamer, gutsy, a winner....pick it. In 2002, the Wings won the Stanley Cup and Yzerman could barely move. He looked pretty bad and you could tell he was hurt. However, the team is successful, so he is all those great things.

It's a mortal lock that if Delmon hit a bloop single instead of a fly ball, he's be a folk hero. Maybe if he was hurt worse, he wouldn't have hit the ball as far. But the next day, the results are in, and all the 20/20 super managers are out to critique the situation.

 

[spockmaster]

It's a mortal lock that if Delmon hit a bloop single instead of a fly ball, he's be a folk hero. Maybe if he was hurt worse, he wouldn't have hit the ball as far. But the next day, the results are in, and all the 20/20 super managers are out to critique the situation.

except that he didnt hit a bloop single, he hit a fly ball. to say we shouldnt critique the situation because "what if he hit a bloop single instead?" is dumb. he DIDNT hit a bloop single, we're critiquing the outcome from his FLY BALL.

 

[biggunsbob]

It's a mortal lock that if Delmon hit a bloop single instead of a fly ball, he's be a folk hero. Maybe if he was hurt worse, he wouldn't have hit the ball as far. But the next day, the results are in, and all the 20/20 super managers are out to critique the situation.

except that he didnt hit a bloop single, he hit a fly ball. to say we shouldnt critique the situation because "what if he hit a bloop single instead?" is dumb. he DIDNT hit a bloop single, we're critiquing the outcome from his FLY BALL.

And sending the runner hoping for a bad throw is even worse then playing Young... We all hope Young goes 4-4 today but last night his one great swing went foul the at abt before the lazy pop Cruz...

 

[suh]

You guys who still think Cabby should have stayed in are not thinking rationally. Yes, Miggy is one of the better hitters in baseball, but he is still only getting a hit 34% of the time. Yes I am fully aware that is great, but that means there is a a 65% chance he is not going to get on/score. With Valverde pitching the Tigers have a much higher chance that the tigers win.

 

[jimrice]

Good idea. Hold Miguel because Alex Avila will drive in a run.

The guy is hitting .100 and Miguel had a better than a 10% chance of scoring. Easy math, right decision.

Oh wait, don't put in Valverde for another inning. Ryan Perry or Brad Penny can handle it. Right on.

Don't play Young, play Kelly or Dirks against the lefty because they are sooooooo good against them. OKie Dokie!

Don't walk Beltre, that cost us the game. Rightio!

Let's start Dirks and lead off Santiago because they get on base even less than Jackson. Perfect!

 

[spockmaster]

You guys who still think Cabby should have stayed in are not thinking rationally. Yes, Miggy is one of the better hitters in baseball, but he is still only getting a hit 34% of the time. Yes I am fully aware that is great, but that means there is a a 65% chance he is not going to get on/score. With Valverde pitching the Tigers have a much higher chance that the tigers win.

i honestly think a pinch runner would have only made it closer but still not scored. miggy was out by 10-15 feet and none of the pinch runners we had available are burners either.

 

[suh]

Dirks is a pretty good runner. It would have been really close with him.

 

[tomdalton22]

Since most Leyland bashers like to use hindsight let's take it a little further.

Leyland knew that game 4 was huge. The Tigers win that game and it is very likely that they win the series. He knew that JV was going in game 5 so he figured they could win game 5 without using Benoit or Papa Grande so he could burn them in game 4. He was right.

Some wanted to pinch hit for Young with Miggy on 3b. JL knew that Young had the ability to go yard even with an injury. Less than 24 hours later he did it twice....once with a man on 3rd. JL was right but Young didn't get the job done.

The Tigers lost game 4 because the players bats were silent....not because of JL's decisions.

 

[beez]

Since most Leyland bashers like to use hindsight let's take it a little further.

Leyland knew that game 4 was huge. The Tigers win that game and it is very likely that they win the series. He knew that JV was going in game 5 so he figured they could win game 5 without using Benoit or Papa Grande so he could burn them in game 4. He was right.

Some wanted to pinch hit for Young with Miggy on 3b. JL knew that Young had the ability to go yard even with an injury. Less than 24 hours later he did it twice....once with a man on 3rd. JL was right but Young didn't get the job done.

The Tigers lost game 4 because the players bats were silent....not because of JL's decisions.

CLAP CLAP CLAP

 

[biggunsbob]

Since most Leyland bashers like to use hindsight let's take it a little further.

Leyland knew that game 4 was huge. The Tigers win that game and it is very likely that they win the series. He knew that JV was going in game 5 so he figured they could win game 5 without using Benoit or Papa Grande so he could burn them in game 4. He was right.

Some wanted to pinch hit for Young with Miggy on 3b. JL knew that Young had the ability to go yard even with an injury. Less than 24 hours later he did it twice....once with a man on 3rd. JL was right but Young didn't get the job done.

The Tigers lost game 4 because the players bats were silent....not because of JL's decisions.

Yeah whatever...

I will concede that maybe Young could have driven the ball a bit further but Kelly di crush the ball yesterday in his at bat... So i will concede that Young batting is ok... You still don't send Miguel from third. You still don't send out Jose for inning number 2 when he has not done it all season long. Having porcello throw to first that many times got hi out of rhythm... Rick has had a error twice now in important games. He did it in game 163... Walking Beltre was beyond idiotic...