Lions draft grades

[tonyballs]

come on Tony...I won my fantasy football league last year!

Hahaaaaa. Nice one

 

[LKP]

WAIT!!!! What about PFF?

Grade based on winning a matchup is easier to decipher than the nuances of the game. Pad level, how they mirror, how they operate in space. Very different. Scouting reports much tougher to do

 

[inkfreq]

I agree with much of what you say 'hughes..but who had him mid 2nd round? I still don't understand where you're getting that info?

Thats what I am getting at.

It's easy to say "he was a 2nd round projection". I can make the argument "he was a first round projection".

Doesn't make either of us right.

Now, you can probably find site that say 2nd round. I can find sites that say 1st round. Hell, just in doing some quick searching I found one that said top 15. Wasn't hard.

Doesn't make those "experts" right.

So aside from saying "I read it in some mock drafts" .. who don't know shit in all reality... we're asking you where you get your evaluation of his value from.

Clearly you have nothing what so ever to support that evaluation, or you'd have said so.

You're a very competitive person, who hates to lose an argument. I get that. I respect that. But you, me, and everyone else reading this thread knows your argument holds no water.

I've given you the better part of two days now to define value, quantify it with a verified measure of value.. and all you have some back with is essentially "because I said so". You might as well quit arguing, because you don't have a single valid source to back up your 2nd round projection.

You have nobodys who mean nothing... and multiple teams disagreed with those projections.

 

[mhughes0021]

Thats what I am getting at.

It's easy to say "he was a 2nd round projection". I can make the argument "he was a first round projection".

Doesn't make either of us right.

Now, you can probably find site that say 2nd round. I can find sites that say 1st round. Hell, just in doing some quick searching I found one that said top 15. Wasn't hard.

Doesn't make those "experts" right.

So aside from saying "I read it in some mock drafts" .. who don't know shit in all reality... we're asking you where you get your evaluation of his value from.

Clearly you have nothing what so ever to support that evaluation, or you'd have said so.

You're a very competitive person, who hates to lose an argument. I get that. I respect that. But you, me, and everyone else reading this thread knows your argument holds no water.

I've given you the better part of two days now to define value, quantify it with a verified measure of value.. and all you have some back with is essentially "because I said so". You might as well quit arguing, because you don't have a single valid source to back up your 2nd round projection.

You have nobodys who mean nothing... and multiple teams disagreed with those projections.

ok prove to me that multiple teams disagreed with those projections. Cause 27 other teams passed on him and there were only 4 picks after us left in the first round. LKP said that most teams said there was no 1st round talent left after pick 18. So that seems kind of contradictory that pick 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 would all have him graded as a first round pick and then draft someone with 2nd round talent over him.

Is it maybe because they don't see THE VALLLLLUEEEEE in picking a guard in the first round?

Is it because maybe they VALUED HIM LOWER than those other 2nd round picks that they pulled the trigger on.

I cant imagine it would be due to need....most everyone needs a solid oline. So the question is where do you pull the trigger on a guard that will only ever be a guard.

You guys keep throwing it back at me like I was the only one that had that idea of a projection for him. LKP mocked him late 2nd round. Ink said on the last page he thought he was a mid 2nd round. No one on here EVER saw him as a first round pick. like 90% of mocks didn't have him as a first round pick. So again...im not entirely sure what you guys are trying to argue cause its plain as day that it not good value to reach on a guard that will only ever play guard. Especially if youre going to throw out that he doesn't need to really ever turn into anything good like Ink has lol. I can prove to you that 27 GMs didn't value him as a 1st round pick.....cause they didn't pick him. I don't know about the other 4 drafting behind us. I personally haven't read anything saying that bellicheck hates his pick and wished he got Laken. Im assuming ill never see that. Ive already admitted that his character more than likely played a role in overvaluing his talent. Its obvious Mayhew focused on character guys and there aren't a lot (if any) guys with character marks as strong as Laken. So when youre focusing on adding guys like that and you have to pick from a limited number....you end up reaching. I get it. You guys are having a hard time coming to that realization.

In the end....if hes good...then hes good. Were not going to be able to say....oh well hes only playing at 3rd round value this week. Or shit....laken really had a first round value kind of day today. Hes either going to be good or hes going to suck. And if our run game doesn't turn it around and continues to fail like it has the past decade...then it was a dumb pick because in my personal opinion we left some talent value on the board in round 1.

 

[Mitchrapp]

ok prove to me that multiple teams disagreed with those projections. Cause 27 other teams passed on him and there were only 4 picks after us left in the first round. LKP said that most teams said there was no 1st round talent left after pick 18. So that seems kind of contradictory that pick 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 would all have him graded as a first round pick and then draft someone with 2nd round talent over him.

Is it maybe because they don't see THE VALLLLLUEEEEE in picking a guard in the first round?

Is it because maybe they VALUED HIM LOWER than those other 2nd round picks that they pulled the trigger on.

I cant imagine it would be due to need....most everyone needs a solid oline. So the question is where do you pull the trigger on a guard that will only ever be a guard.

You guys keep throwing it back at me like I was the only one that had that idea of a projection for him. LKP mocked him late 2nd round. Ink said on the last page he thought he was a mid 2nd round. No one on here EVER saw him as a first round pick. like 90% of mocks didn't have him as a first round pick. So again...im not entirely sure what you guys are trying to argue cause its plain as day that it not good value to reach on a guard that will only ever play guard. Especially if youre going to throw out that he doesn't need to really ever turn into anything good like Ink has lol. I can prove to you that 27 GMs didn't value him as a 1st round pick.....cause they didn't pick him. I don't know about the other 4 drafting behind us. I personally haven't read anything saying that bellicheck hates his pick and wished he got Laken. Im assuming ill never see that. Ive already admitted that his character more than likely played a role in overvaluing his talent. Its obvious Mayhew focused on character guys and there aren't a lot (if any) guys with character marks as strong as Laken. So when youre focusing on adding guys like that and you have to pick from a limited number....you end up reaching. I get it. You guys are having a hard time coming to that realization.

In the end....if hes good...then hes good. Were not going to be able to say....oh well hes only playing at 3rd round value this week. Or shit....laken really had a first round value kind of day today. Hes either going to be good or hes going to suck. And if our run game doesn't turn it around and continues to fail like it has the past decade...then it was a dumb pick because in my personal opinion we left some talent value on the board in round 1.

Is that the same as saying 5 teams didn't see Leonard Williams a 1st round pick..? Makes no sense..

 

[boogerlovejoy]

So again...im not entirely sure what you guys are trying to argue cause its plain as day that it not good value to reach on a guard that will only ever play guard.

Zack Martin - OG - Dallas Cowboys

First link I clicked on when searching for where Martin was slotted was Walter Football. They had him "toward the end of the first round". CBS Sports had him at "Rounds 1-2".

He went 16th to Dallas.

EVERY draft projection I saw had him moving to guard because of his size. He will ONLY ever play guard in the NFL.

One year in the league.

One Pro Bowl

One 1st team All Pro

Dallas goes from 24th in rushing in 2013 to 2nd in 2014.

Like Ink said.......your "plain as day" opinion carries no weight because it simply isn't true.....and there is VERY recent data to prove that.

 

[brewer229]

Zack Martin - OG - Dallas Cowboys

First link I clicked on when searching for where Martin was slotted was Walter Football. They had him "toward the end of the first round". CBS Sports had him at "Rounds 1-2".

He went 16th to Dallas.

EVERY draft projection I saw had him moving to guard because of his size. He will ONLY ever play guard in the NFL.

One year in the league.

One Pro Bowl

One 1st team All Pro

Dallas goes from 24th in rushing in 2013 to 2nd in 2014.

Like Ink said.......your "plain as day" opinion carries no weight because it simply isn't true.....and there is VERY recent data to prove that.

Based on that logic you should take any 5'11" QB because Russel Wilson is great. Or draft any Michigan QB in the 6th round.

 

[mhughes0021]

Based on that logic you should take any 5'11" QB because Russel Wilson is great. Or draft any Michigan QB in the 6th round.

Lol i love how they always can cherrypick the few times....like im too dumb to understand or remember a year ago when a tackle propect was selected high and moved him to guard. Again....the average draft position for starting guards in tge league is about 3.5. How much nor value do you get from drafting one in the first round? I dare tomlinson to be as hoid as martin and kyle long. Dare him!...and then it would have been worth it.

I'm not sure how wr are now comparing a 1st round projected tackle to a late 2nd rd guard....or how their situations were comparable in any shape or form. But sure....the cowboys got great value. If you want an example closer to home. ...i said the the reiff pick was great value and i thought he was going to be a guard.

 

[inkfreq]

ok prove to me that multiple teams disagreed with those projections. Cause 27 other teams passed on him and there were only 4 picks after us left in the first round. LKP said that most teams said there was no 1st round talent left after pick 18. So that seems kind of contradictory that pick 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 would all have him graded as a first round pick and then draft someone with 2nd round talent over him.

Is it maybe because they don't see THE VALLLLLUEEEEE in picking a guard in the first round?

Is it because maybe they VALUED HIM LOWER than those other 2nd round picks that they pulled the trigger on.

I cant imagine it would be due to need....most everyone needs a solid oline. So the question is where do you pull the trigger on a guard that will only ever be a guard.

You guys keep throwing it back at me like I was the only one that had that idea of a projection for him. LKP mocked him late 2nd round. Ink said on the last page he thought he was a mid 2nd round. No one on here EVER saw him as a first round pick. like 90% of mocks didn't have him as a first round pick. So again...im not entirely sure what you guys are trying to argue cause its plain as day that it not good value to reach on a guard that will only ever play guard. Especially if youre going to throw out that he doesn't need to really ever turn into anything good like Ink has lol. I can prove to you that 27 GMs didn't value him as a 1st round pick.....cause they didn't pick him. I don't know about the other 4 drafting behind us. I personally haven't read anything saying that bellicheck hates his pick and wished he got Laken. Im assuming ill never see that. Ive already admitted that his character more than likely played a role in overvaluing his talent. Its obvious Mayhew focused on character guys and there aren't a lot (if any) guys with character marks as strong as Laken. So when youre focusing on adding guys like that and you have to pick from a limited number....you end up reaching. I get it. You guys are having a hard time coming to that realization.

In the end....if hes good...then hes good. Were not going to be able to say....oh well hes only playing at 3rd round value this week. Or shit....laken really had a first round value kind of day today. Hes either going to be good or hes going to suck. And if our run game doesn't turn it around and continues to fail like it has the past decade...then it was a dumb pick because in my personal opinion we left some talent value on the board in round 1.

Total bullshit.

Point 1: You've circled around your argument about a dozen ways now, and your spin has changed enough EVERYONE on this board known you're still in this because you hate losing.

Point 2: I had the guy in the 2nd round. LKP had him in the 2nd round. You had him in the 2nd round. Agreed. Which of us are NFL scouts, coaches, or GMs? We also ALL had Ifo in the 3rd. Did that happen? Did the people who actually do this for a living agree with us? Absolutely not, and you know it.

Your argument was that he wasn't a value pick. You have provided not one reliable source that says scouts had him in the 2nd round. All you have is the mocks and the other of us on the board... all totally unreliable sources as I've said time and time again.

Every mock I have seen since I've been looking says Tevin Coleman was going in the 2nd. Didn't happen. They all say Michael Bennet in the 2nd. Didn't happen. Most of them have Bennet being taken ahead of Xavier Cooper. Didn't happen. And you know I can keep going. Every mock out there got hundreds of picks wrong, and most of them got about a hundred guys in the wrong round.

It's guesswork. Anyone with a brain knows these guys are guessing. They know these guys don't have the same scouting reports that NFL teams have. The mock guys didn't sit in the interviews, didn't attend private workouts, didn't see pro days, and the vast VAST majority didn't go to the combine.

It's guesswork that you somehow take as gospel. And then you regurgitate it like it was an original idea, based on your own esteemed knowledge of the draft process and all of your vast scouting knowledge and want to talk about "value".

You have no clue how many of the first 27 teams thought he was a first rounder, but liked someone else more. Are you going to tell me the Lions didn't believe Adrian Peterson was a first round talent because they didn't take him instead of Calvin Johnson?

Your assumption that 26 teams (Browns picked twice) didn't think he was worthy of a first round pick because they chose someone else is perhaps the single most ignorant thing I have ever heard on this board. I suppose you would tell me the Bucs didn't think Mariota was worth a first round pick because they took Winston. And if so, but that logic, the Bucs didn't think ANYONE was worth a first round pick.

Just stop dude. I have no problems with your statement that you thought he wasn't worth it. That's an opinion. We all have them. But to continue to argue the "value" of the pick like it's fact because of where silly fucking mock drafts thought he would go is just asinine.

Try to remember, there were DTs in this years draft scouts though could have gone in the 1st or 2nd round most years but went in the 4-6 range this year because there were so many good DTs in the draft. Guys with 1st round grades slide all the time because of a glut of them, and guy's with 3rd round grades sometimes make it into the 1st round (Kyle Long) because there aren't enough to go around.

Value on a player might sometimes be based on scarcity, but it's damned well never based on a mock draft.

 

[boogerlovejoy]

Based on that logic you should take any 5'11" QB because Russel Wilson is great. Or draft any Michigan QB in the 6th round.

LOL.....that's not even CLOSE.

Try again, Sally.

Keep throwin out analogies that make ZERO sense.

 

[boogerlovejoy]

Here is what this ENTIRE argument comes down to......

it is IMPOSSIBLE to quantify value at this point because the players haven't played a down yet.

It's all opinion at this point....but some people act like it's fact because of what some draft "experts" say.

If Tomlinson is Zack Martin....it's tremendous value.......if he's Stephen Peterman....it's bad value.

To put it another way......if you were to hire someone to put a new roof on your home......and paid that company $5,000.00 less than another company was willing to do it for......would you say it was great value BEFORE they put the roof on.......or wait until the work is done?? Not good value if they leave a 10' hole in the middle roof without shingles, is it?

It simply isn't possible to say who brought value to the 2015 draft at this point.

 

[mhughes0021]

Total bullshit.

Point 1: You've circled around your argument about a dozen ways now, and your spin has changed enough EVERYONE on this board known you're still in this because you hate losing.

Point 2: I had the guy in the 2nd round. LKP had him in the 2nd round. You had him in the 2nd round. Agreed. Which of us are NFL scouts, coaches, or GMs? We also ALL had Ifo in the 3rd. Did that happen? Did the people who actually do this for a living agree with us? Absolutely not, and you know it.

Your argument was that he wasn't a value pick. You have provided not one reliable source that says scouts had him in the 2nd round. All you have is the mocks and the other of us on the board... all totally unreliable sources as I've said time and time again.

Every mock I have seen since I've been looking says Tevin Coleman was going in the 2nd. Didn't happen. They all say Michael Bennet in the 2nd. Didn't happen. Most of them have Bennet being taken ahead of Xavier Cooper. Didn't happen. And you know I can keep going. Every mock out there got hundreds of picks wrong, and most of them got about a hundred guys in the wrong round.

It's guesswork. Anyone with a brain knows these guys are guessing. They know these guys don't have the same scouting reports that NFL teams have. The mock guys didn't sit in the interviews, didn't attend private workouts, didn't see pro days, and the vast VAST majority didn't go to the combine.

It's guesswork that you somehow take as gospel. And then you regurgitate it like it was an original idea, based on your own esteemed knowledge of the draft process and all of your vast scouting knowledge and want to talk about "value".

You have no clue how many of the first 27 teams thought he was a first rounder, but liked someone else more. Are you going to tell me the Lions didn't believe Adrian Peterson was a first round talent because they didn't take him instead of Calvin Johnson?

Your assumption that 26 teams (Browns picked twice) didn't think he was worthy of a first round pick because they chose someone else is perhaps the single most ignorant thing I have ever heard on this board. I suppose you would tell me the Bucs didn't think Mariota was worth a first round pick because they took Winston. And if so, but that logic, the Bucs didn't think ANYONE was worth a first round pick.

Just stop dude. I have no problems with your statement that you thought he wasn't worth it. That's an opinion. We all have them. But to continue to argue the "value" of the pick like it's fact because of where silly fucking mock drafts thought he would go is just asinine.

Try to remember, there were DTs in this years draft scouts though could have gone in the 1st or 2nd round most years but went in the 4-6 range this year because there were so many good DTs in the draft. Guys with 1st round grades slide all the time because of a glut of them, and guy's with 3rd round grades sometimes make it into the 1st round (Kyle Long) because there aren't enough to go around.

Value on a player might sometimes be based on scarcity, but it's damned well never based on a mock draft.

Thank you for helping prove my point....bennett and ifo were mocked earlier. Snd when they weren't drafted that high....we said they fell. And when he was still there in round 5 and 6....ppl said to draft him because he'd be good value. And when things go the other way. ...its called a reach. Thanks again for playing....

 

[mhughes0021]

Here is what this ENTIRE argument comes down to......

it is IMPOSSIBLE to quantify value at this point because the players haven't played a down yet.

It's all opinion at this point....but some people act like it's fact because of what some draft "experts" say.

If Tomlinson is Zack Martin....it's tremendous value.......if he's Stephen Peterman....it's bad value.

To put it another way......if you were to hire someone to put a new roof on your home......and paid that company $5,000.00 less than another company was willing to do it for......would you say it was great value BEFORE they put the roof on.......or wait until the work is done?? Not good value if they leave a 10' hole in the middle roof without shingles, is it?

It simply isn't possible to say who brought value to the 2015 draft at this point.

Exactly...all we have to go off of is his projections. And where was he projected again by like 80% of ppl that make projections? And what is it called when you go earlier than your projection?

 

[tomdalton22]

Here is the way I look at this pick. If the Lions truly thought that Tomlinson was the guy they wanted in the first round and they felt other teams valued him equally they wouldn't have traded back 5 spots....they would have taken him at 23. The value in this pick was they got a potential starting guard (which was a need) towards the end of the first round, an additional pick and some OL depth. If he is a bust....he will be one of many.

 

[mhughes0021]

Ps martin was projected high and started to slide...to a team that already had a pro bowl lt.

 

[mhughes0021]

Charlie casserly is a former executive. He didnt have tomlinson in the 1st round.

 

[LKP]

If Mayhew gave him a late 1st round grade. That is his grade. Not a reach.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Charlie casserly is a former executive. He didnt have tomlinson in the 1st round.

Well shit. If he made better picks when he was with Washington maybe he wouldn't have been fired.

 

[mhughes0021]

If Mayhew gave him a late 1st round grade. That is his grade. Not a reach.

Lol ya....cause mayhew is so well known for his draft grades.

 

[LKP]

Lol ya....cause mayhew is so well known for his draft grades.

He's got a good track record overall. Draft and FA. Eye for talent. Only grade that truly matters.

He matters more than Charlie Casserly lol