No Deal For Cliff

[cheeno]

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/m...i-will-miss-some-of-camp-or-a-lot-i-dont-know

Here is a guy who agrees with me. Has the 3/$20M G figure in it and Cliff says it was very close to what he wanted. In the comments someone refers to the 5 yr 2M G (10M) distance the two sides were reportedly apart.

 

[cheeno]

Plus as I've argued for a while, our system is pretty friendly to DE's. Its not like he's the only speed pass rusher alive. I mean you could probably get some level of production from guys like Aaron Maybin and Vernon Gholston with what we ask our DE's to do. Not saying I want those guys, just saying our system is unique to the position.

Pick some better guys. That is retarded.

 

[Mitchrapp]

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/m...i-will-miss-some-of-camp-or-a-lot-i-dont-know

Here is a guy who agrees with me. Has the 3/$20M G figure in it and Cliff says it was very close to what he wanted. In the comments someone refers to the 5 yr 2M G (10M) distance the two sides were reportedly apart.

I know there is the side, you're part of where you say MM was cheap. But if they were so close, why didn't Cliff sign? For a lousy 2m? Its similar to Brees when they offered 19.2 and he wanted 20.5. You telling me 19.2 wasn't good enough?

If they're so close, why do you blame MM but not Avril?

 

[lionsFTW]

Pick some better guys. That is retarded.

wat?

 

[lionsFTW]

I know there is the side, you're part of where you say MM was cheap. But if they were so close, why didn't Cliff sign? For a lousy 2m? Its similar to Brees when they offered 19.2 and he wanted 20.5. You telling me 19.2 wasn't good enough?

If they're so close, why do you blame MM but not Avril?

yeah I agree with this.

when two people both make what they consider to be the correct decision then there's really no one to blame. regardless of the perception vs reality of it they both made what they felt to be correct decisions imo.

 

[cheeno]

I know there is the side, you're part of where you say MM was cheap. But if they were so close, why didn't Cliff sign? For a lousy 2m? Its similar to Brees when they offered 19.2 and he wanted 20.5. You telling me 19.2 wasn't good enough?

If they're so close, why do you blame MM but not Avril?

I think it was 2M per year on a 5 so 10M total not 2M total, I did read that Brees rejection which was crazy when your are talking that kind of money.

I do blame Cliff to some degree, it takes two to make or break a contract, and the 3 yr $20M wasn't a bad deal.

I think Cliff expected more after trusting MM and signing the cheap RFA tender then having a career year. The trust wasn't there (especially if MM verbally says the Lions will honor the 3rd year of his deal making the contract actually worthwhile).

The reason I believe MM went cheap and deserves more of the blame:

1. they should have signed him last year without slapping him with the RFA tender, and they could have negotiated a better deal (maybe a do over MM wishes he had back himself).

2. Marketwise $20 M Guaranteed is money for a successful MLB not a successful DE. A deal which Tulloch recently signed.

 

[cheeno]

wat?

Aaron Maybin and Vernon Gholston could not replace Avril in our or any offense, that is dumb. It goes to show how far the conversation around Avril has degenerated.

 

[Mitchrapp]

20m is still 20m. He's still one dimensional and granted some good DE have been one dimensional and with the cap stagnant at 120m, I'm not sure MM could offer more.

 

[lionsFTW]

Aaron Maybin and Vernon Gholston could not replace Avril in our or any offense, that is dumb. It goes to show how far the conversation around Avril has degenerated.

who said they could?

 

[cheeno]

who said they could?

What was the point of mentioning them then? Must have missed that.

The same shit is said and defended by you and every other Lions fan about Stafford: system QB (663 attempts) and his stats are due in large part to playing with CJ. Are we going to go cheap on him when the time comes and say we can get production out of Kyle Orton.

Retarded.

20m is still 20m. He's still one dimensional and granted some good DE have been one dimensional and with the cap stagnant at 120m, I'm not sure MM could offer more.

We were discussing this earlier, I'm not sure they could have offered more, but it is possible. If they could have I think they should have.

 

[Mitchrapp]

What was the point of mentioning them then? Must have missed that.

The same shit is said and defended by you and every other Lions fan about Stafford: system QB (663 attempts) and his stats are due in large part to playing with CJ. Are we going to go cheap on him when the time comes and say we can get production out of Kyle Orton.

Retarded.

Kyle Orton, noooo. Ha. Its great having CJ but Staff makes some unbelievable passes so whether we have CJ or not, he's pretty darn good.

 

[lionsFTW]

WTF are you talking about, Cheeno. I've been one of the biggest defenders of Avril's role on this team. He does exactly what he's asked to do better than anybody else on the team at his position.

This is my exact quote

Plus as I've argued for a while, our system is pretty friendly to DE's. Its not like he's the only speed pass rusher alive. I mean you could probably get some level of production from guys like Aaron Maybin and Vernon Gholston with what we ask our DE's to do. Not saying I want those guys, just saying our system is unique to the position.

Slow down and read it carefully. All it says is that our system is very unique to the DE position. So unique that other that us only one other team in the whole damn league ask their DE's to do what we do. That is either beat their man around the corner or use the large gap from the wide stance to build up speed and bull rush.

Now, if you look closely I mentioned those two simply because I was saying that Cliff is not the only speed rusher in the world and that there will be other options. Guys like Aaron Maybin and Vernon Gholston who have been complete washouts in this league could probably have some sort of impact in our system (no where did I say replace Cliff or his production) with what we ask our guys to do. If that's the case then finding an adequate replacement for Avril is not the end of the world.

 

[lionsFTW]

The same shit is said and defended by you and every other Lions fan about Stafford: system QB (663 attempts) and his stats are due in large part to playing with CJ. Are we going to go cheap on him when the time comes and say we can get production out of Kyle Orton.

And this is just complete horse shit. You can go through my entire posting history and you probably will find less that 5 post related to Staff and zero of them will be negative. I love the kid. I understand people get angry when people attack their opinions but god damn man, I've never said anything remotely close to what you're accusing me of.

 

[lp4ever41]

I read somewhere that the Lions offer 3 yr $20M guaranteed and that it was about $10M short, so this is all based on the assumption that these unsubstantiated reports were correct, who knows what the real figures were.

I agree with you on KC and Carolina, but I think some of that has to do with the upcoming cap floor I know both were way under.

I was talking about your 4 year, $30 mil guaranteed. But yeah, they offered him 3 years, $30 million, $20 guaranteed. So, effectively, its either a 2 year, $20 million deal or a 3 year, $30 million deal. If he makes it to that third year, he's getting the full $30 million.

That's an average of $10 million per year. I think its more than fair. I believe Avril wanted more years and more money per year.

At the end of the day, you have to pick and choose. Good teams will often have to let good, young players go. Pats lost Asante and a few o-lineman. Ravens have lost guys like Grubbs, Adailus Thomas (he was good with Baltimore), and Bart Scott. Green Bay lost Cullen Jenkins. Houston lost Mario Williams. Pitt had to trade Holmes for a 5th because they didn't want to pay him. San Diego lost Vincent Jackson, Michael Turner, Drew Brees, and Darren Sproles. Atlanta lost Curtis Lofton. It happens. You can't keep everyone.

IMO, a good GM decides what he thinks a player is worth and sticks to that, regardless of what other GMs are paying for similar players. If a player can't accept that, move on to someone who will.

 

[cheeno]

WTF are you talking about, Cheeno. I've been one of the biggest defenders of Avril's role on this team. He does exactly what he's asked to do better than anybody else on the team at his position.

This is my exact quote



Slow down and read it carefully. All it says is that our system is very unique to the DE position. So unique that other that us only one other team in the whole damn league ask their DE's to do what we do. That is either beat their man around the corner or use the large gap from the wide stance to build up speed and bull rush.

Now, if you look closely I mentioned those two simply because I was saying that Cliff is not the only speed rusher in the world and that there will be other options. Guys like Aaron Maybin and Vernon Gholston who have been complete washouts in this league could probably have some sort of impact in our system (no where did I say replace Cliff or his production) with what we ask our guys to do. If that's the case then finding an adequate replacement for Avril is not the end of the world.

And this is just complete horse shit. You can go through my entire posting history and you probably will find less that 5 post related to Staff and zero of them will be negative. I love the kid. I understand people get angry when people attack their opinions but god damn man, I've never said anything remotely close to what you're accusing me of.

For your "adequate replacement" of Avril you chose two absolute bums. Your reasoning is that it is the system that is the main driver. I pointed out that this same argument is made about Stafford by fans of other teams and sports media (not by you, read my post more carefully) and that you would defend against such criticism. The same argument you are using in your post.

I just replaced "Avril" with "Stafford" and "Maybin and Gholston" with "Orton" both arguments are equally flawed.

 

[cheeno]

I was talking about your 4 year, $30 mil guaranteed. But yeah, they offered him 3 years, $30 million, $20 guaranteed. So, effectively, its either a 2 year, $20 million deal or a 3 year, $30 million deal. If he makes it to that third year, he's getting the full $30 million.

That's an average of $10 million per year. I think its more than fair. I believe Avril wanted more years and more money per year.

At the end of the day, you have to pick and choose. Good teams will often have to let good, young players go. Pats lost Asante and a few o-lineman. Ravens have lost guys like Grubbs, Adailus Thomas (he was good with Baltimore), and Bart Scott. Green Bay lost Cullen Jenkins. Houston lost Mario Williams. Pitt had to trade Holmes for a 5th because they didn't want to pay him. San Diego lost Vincent Jackson, Michael Turner, Drew Brees, and Darren Sproles. Atlanta lost Curtis Lofton. It happens. You can't keep everyone.

IMO, a good GM decides what he thinks a player is worth and sticks to that, regardless of what other GMs are paying for similar players. If a player can't accept that, move on to someone who will.

The last time the Pats let a pass rusher go it was Seymour, I think that was Al Davis' one and only win since the 70s. Bart Scott is behind a HOF that will play till he is 60. Jenkins was a big hit to the GB D and would like a do-over on signing him I would imagine. Holmes had his own problems similar to half our team unlike Cliff has ever had. SD hasn't won a playoff game in 10 years. not exactly the best examples. Find one where someone let a top young pass rusher go in his prime. One comes to mind his name was Reggie White, Cliff is no White but it just doesn't happen.

 

[lionsFTW]

The same shit is said and defended by you and every other Lions fan about Stafford: system QB (663 attempts) and his stats are due in large part to playing with CJ. Are we going to go cheap on him when the time comes and say we can get production out of Kyle Orton.

For somebody who is saying they didn't say something about me directly it sure looks an awful lot like that's exactly what you said.

Now, if you look closely I mentioned those two simply because I was saying that Cliff is not the only speed rusher in the world and that there will be other options. Guys like Aaron Maybin and Vernon Gholston who have been complete washouts in this league could probably have some sort of impact in our system (no where did I say replace Cliff or his production) with what we ask our guys to do. If that's the case then finding an adequate replacement for Avril is not the end of the world.

Tell me where in the hell in this bolded portion that I say Maybin and Gholston are adequate replacements for Cliff. I'm simply saying that if scrub ass speed rushers like these two can, imo, have an impact on our team then we can surely find somebody better who can help to ease the burden of loosing cliff.

Whats the deal man? Your reading comprehension isn't usually so bad. Somebody kick your dog this morning?

 

[lp4ever41]

The last time the Pats let a pass rusher go it was Seymour, I think that was Al Davis' one and only win since the 70s. Bart Scott is behind a HOF that will play till he is 60. Jenkins was a big hit to the GB D and would like a do-over on signing him I would imagine. Holmes had his own problems similar to half our team unlike Cliff has ever had. SD hasn't won a playoff game in 10 years. not exactly the best examples. Find one where someone let a top young pass rusher go in his prime. One comes to mind his name was Reggie White, Cliff is no White but it just doesn't happen.

Cliff has never been in the top 10 in the NFL in sacks. What's your definition of top? Cliff is not a top pass rusher.

I compare Cliff to Charles Johnson. Coincidentally, Cliff wants similar money (or so he says). And I would never pay him that money.

BTW, San Diego has won 3 playoff games since 2005. Not great, but they did make an AFC championship game.

And one thing you're forgetting: Sign Cliff for the money he wants, and you can kiss both LoJack and Young goodbye in the future. Detroit can't afford massive contracts to Suh and Avril and still pay for other quality players on the d-line.

 

[cheeno]

FTW: Actually my reading comprehension is fine it is my writing that is bad, re-reading that first quote. What I meant to write was the same argument [product of the system] is made [by others about Stafford] and you would defend Stafford [believing the argument to be false]. I hope someone got that, Mitch, is that you raising your hand, no? Okay, sorry.

The second point I find to be a point of contention, and the guys you mentioned push that contention even further.

Trying to work and post. My bad.

 

[cheeno]

For somebody who is saying they didn't say something about me directly it sure looks an awful lot like that's exactly what you said.



Tell me where in the hell in this bolded portion that I say Maybin and Gholston are adequate replacements for Cliff. I'm simply saying that if scrub ass speed rushers like these two can, imo, have an impact on our team then we can surely find somebody better who can help to ease the burden of loosing cliff.

Whats the deal man? Your reading comprehension isn't usually so bad. Somebody kick your dog this morning?

Cliff has never been in the top 10 in the NFL in sacks. What's your definition of top? Cliff is not a top pass rusher.

I compare Cliff to Charles Johnson. Coincidentally, Cliff wants similar money (or so he says). And I would never pay him that money.

BTW, San Diego has won 3 playoff games since 2005. Not great, but they did make an AFC championship game.

And one thing you're forgetting: Sign Cliff for the money he wants, and you can kiss both LoJack and Young goodbye in the future. Detroit can't afford massive contracts to Suh and Avril and still pay for other quality players on the d-line.

Cliff has played on some of the worst defenses of all time, including I'm guessing more than a half dozen games where the opposing team had 30-40 rushing attempts due to being up 21 plus after 1 quarter. I know I was there for at least that many and I spent the game drinking and eating a Charlie Sanders.