Race to the bottom

[Mitchrapp]

2 full seasons of training camp, practices and limited playing time in games. They have had plenty of time to figure out he isn't good...they don't have to put him in a game to figure it out.

Make sense but they've played junk players before. You telling me he couldn't beat out Tulloch? Then I expect him to be gone soon if he's that bad.

 

[tbone413]

He spent most of his college career in the backfield. Our lbs don't do that. We seem to blitz our corners and safeties more than our lbs. A couple times a game we send Tulloch on a run blitz.....that's about it....coverage and sitting in zones wasn't really van noys game. I thought when we picked him we would see this cool hybrid 3-4 type defense with him playing a key attacking type role. Weve done nothing even close to that. Maybe with Tulloch gone it opens some things up.....his range was awful this year....kept us from being very creative with what we could do.

Ya thats a good point, I heard a lot of comparisons to Clay Matthews when KVN was drafted, in that he could get to the QB quick. However, like you said, we dont usually blitz our LBers that often. I always assumed that was due to personnel, but maybe not.

Whatever the case, my hopes for KVN to be a productive member of the Lions going forward are very low. Unfortunately...

 

[Mitchrapp]

Ya thats a good point, I heard a lot of comparisons to Clay Matthews when KVN was drafted, in that he could get to the QB quick. However, like you said, we dont usually blitz our LBers that often. I always assumed that was due to personnel, but maybe not.

Whatever the case, my hopes for KVN to be a productive member of the Lions going forward are very low. Unfortunately...

Not a surprise. Another 2nd round pick..

 

[UMRules06]

when is the last time the Lions did that when they weren't picking in the top 10?

There may be what...5-7 "franchise" type players in each draft? If you pick in the top 5 you are guaranteed to have one available to you when you pick. It doesn't mean you will actually select him and it doesn't mean he might not be there in the middle of the round, but you are guaranteed to have one of those guys available.

Another great thing about picking in the top 5 is the ability to trade down and stockpile picks.

Do the Lions "need" a franchise player right now? They are closer to the playoffs than being in the toilet and having to start over. Nothing is guaranteed as you said, no matter where you select (thank you Charles Rogers).

The fact that the Lions have screwed up their drafts so often is fair enough, but I don't want to be so cynical as to believe they need a top 5 pick every year just to get a player of any substance. And why are you a fan of stockpiling picks if the Lions are just going to botch them anyway?

I am much more positive about this team moving forward than I would be if we had finished 3-13 and gotten a top 5 pick. If that had happened it would have meant we have way more problems than we can fix in one offseason.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Do the Lions "need" a franchise player right now? They are closer to the playoffs than being in the toilet and having to start over. Nothing is guaranteed as you said, no matter where you select (thank you Charles Rogers).

The fact that the Lions have screwed up their drafts so often is fair enough, but I don't want to be so cynical as to believe they need a top 5 pick every year just to get a player of any substance. And why are you a fan of stockpiling picks if the Lions are just going to botch them anyway?

I am much more positive about this team moving forward than I would be if we had finished 3-13 and gotten a top 5 pick. That means we have way more problems than we can fix in one offseason.

Closer to the playoffs? :hehe: One win against .500 or above is closer to toilet. Don't be fooled by beating bad teams.

 

[UMRules06]

Closer to the playoffs? :hehe: One win against ,500 or above is closer to toilet.

Matter of opinion. If you disagree that's fine, but I think with some right tweaking the team can be competitive again next year. Long ways to go so we'll see.

And really that Packers hail mary game should have been a win, but oh well haha.

 

[Sbee]

I would rather have a top 5 pick vs. going 7-9 and missing the playoffs.

top 5 pick requires top 5 money and contract. it's all about getting value from the pick you make regardless of where it is, better chance for a premium player early but the risk is greater due to the cost. In a salary cap sport, it's all about the value from the pick.

 

[UMRules06]

7-9 means you have pieces in place. top 5 pick means you are a few years away at least.

That's how I view it.

 

[Mitchrapp]

7-9 means you have pieces in place. top 5 pick means you are a few years away at least.

That's how I view it.

1-7 against .500 or better teams means you're not good.

 

[UMRules06]

Top 5 Draft Picks last 3 years:

2013: Chiefs, Jaguars, Dolphins, Eagles, Lions

2014: Texans, Rams, Jaguars, Bills, Raiders,

2015: Bucs, Titans, Jaguars, Raiders, Redskins

None of those teams are currently elite and/or championship contenders. There are a few solid groups in the bunch (Chiefs for example), but that's about it.

 

[UMRules06]

1-7 against .500 or better teams means you're not good.

Relative to the best teams in the league? No of course not. The Lions are middle of the pack right now. They can beat the bad teams and then lose to the good teams. That means they are average

 

[tbone413]

top 5 pick requires top 5 money and contract. it's all about getting value from the pick you make regardless of where it is, better chance for a premium player early but the risk is greater due to the cost. In a salary cap sport, it's all about the value from the pick.

I agree with you on getting value, but the 'risk' incurred by drafting in the top 5 now, after the New CBA, as opposed to before hand, is substantially less. The number one pick was virtually untradable in the Old CBA, and more often than not would hurt a franchise due to the insanely large contract dolled out. The player needed to preform like an All-pro within 3 years of being drafted, or your team was F'd....and even then, good luck extending them for a reasonable price....classic damned if you do, damned if you dont situation.

Lions experienced that first hand. Figures our 'string of top 5 picks' would occur literally right before the new CBA, so the Lions were effectively the last team fucked over by the old rookie pay scale.

Oh well

 

[Mitchrapp]

Near 60 years of history says we're same ole same ole next season. I mean, after 40 you have to start wondering..

 

[Mitchrapp]

Relative to the best teams in the league? No of course not. The Lions are middle of the pack right now. They can beat the bad teams and then lose to the good teams. That means they are average

So how are they close to playoffs? Plus the draft position says they're below average.

 

[UMRules06]

So how are they close to playoffs? Plus the draft position says they're below average.

You're arguing semantics now. The Lions pick 16th out of 32 teams. Isn't that the definition of average? Middle of the pack.

With the right moves, doesn't it stand to reason they could potentially move up a few spots to say pick #22 or #23? That would imply playoffs wouldn't it?

And yes it's just as probable that they screw the pooch and head backwards I'm aware of that. But the point of this conversation was I'd rather be in this position than having a top 5 pick.

 

[inkfreq]

You're arguing semantics now. The Lions pick 16th out of 32 teams. Isn't that the definition of average? Middle of the pack.

With the right moves, doesn't it stand to reason they could potentially move up a few spots to say pick #22 or #23? That would imply playoffs wouldn't it?

And yes it's just as probable that they screw the pooch and head backwards I'm aware of that. But the point of this conversation was I'd rather be in this position than having a top 5 pick.

It's really hard to move backwards with a draft pick to be honest. Lots of guys get drafted every year that just don't play. They spend their season on the bench. You are no worse off for it, you just didn't get better.

Occasionally you get an EJ Manuel, and you get worse, because you let a bad draft pick start at a critical position, but it's hard to do.

 

[Mitchrapp]

It's really hard to move backwards with a draft pick to be honest. Lots of guys get drafted every year that just don't play. They spend their season on the bench. You are no worse off for it, you just didn't get better.

Occasionally you get an EJ Manuel, and you get worse, because you let a bad draft pick start at a critical position, but it's hard to do.

We have lots of year of backwards. Like last season to this season. And it's because you don't get the right players.

 

[inkfreq]

We have lots of year of backwards. Like last season to this season. And it's because you don't get the right players.

We went backwards for a number of reasons, but in my opinion, chief among them was a bad offensive coordinator and the lack of players, not the wrong players.

You can't lose your entire interior D-line and not do anything about it. Mayhew's decision to pass on Donald and go after Ebron was a disaster in the making, and then laying back in free agency and a second draft sealed the deal.

 

[brewer229]

We went backwards for a number of reasons, but in my opinion, chief among them was a bad offensive coordinator and the lack of players, not the wrong players.

You can't lose your entire interior D-line and not do anything about it. Mayhew's decision to pass on Donald and go after Ebron was a disaster in the making, and then laying back in free agency and a second draft sealed the deal.

They did trade for Ngata and sign Walker. So they did attempt to fix it.
They didn't have much money to do any other fixes in free agency. They deserve some blame for that.

 

[inkfreq]

They did trade for Ngata and sign Walker. So they did attempt to fix it.
They didn't have much money to do any other fixes in free agency. They deserve some blame for that.

The guy who deserves all the blame for all those moves got the blame. He was fired.