Stupid Book

[redandguilty]

I was up way too late reading last night. Today is going to suck. It's a more entertaining read than I had expected.

...and I wouldn't mind if Rosenberg moved to the other side of the country and I never heard of him again.

 

[deathroh]

Thoughts on Carr?

 

[redandguilty]

Thoughts on Carr?

What's the spoiler policy here?


Here comes a spoiler. I'll make it small to reduce the chance that anyone will accidentally read it.




Carr actually was the 1st guy from Michigan to call RR, which is difficult to understand in the context of him not only offering to sign players' release forms before RR got there, but even apparently recommending to some that they transfer. Without hearing Carr's side of the story, you can only guess at motivation. Is it Carr's job to protect the players he recruited at Michigan's expense or should he protect Michigan at his recruits' expense? Several chapters in, I still see Carr favorably in spite of the characterization that he was emptying the cupboard as he left and didn't do Rodriguez any favors with public endorsements. Some people won't, but I think it fair to classify myself as a Llody Loyalist. And I'm not sure you can blame RR or Carr for their inability to hit it off. They're just oil and water. So far this book is tough to read mostly because everything that happened seems so improbable. There are several little things that didn't need to be the way they were that probably had a big impact.

 

[Michchamp]

[quote author=deathroh board=wolverines thread=2801 post=70287 time=1319637425]Thoughts on Carr?

yeah, none of that makes any sense to me either. did he cite anyone on the record for all that, or are those anonymous allegations?

the allegations that Carr went from being the kind, grandfatherly keeper of the flame to suddenly transforming into this Machiavellian manipulator seeking to undermine RR at every turn (and succeeding) behind the scenes don't pass the smell test.

I can understand people criticizing Carr's coaching decisions, and some of the bad losses late in his tenure, but some people seemed to have an irrational hatred of the guy, and attribute these superhuman powers of manipulation to him. If all that were true, he wouldn't have retired when he did, he probably would've had a better coaching record too.

 

[redandguilty]

[quote author=deathroh board=wolverines thread=2801 post=70287 time=1319637425]Thoughts on Carr?

yeah, none of that makes any sense to me either. did he cite anyone on the record for all that, or are those anonymous allegations?

the allegations that Carr went from being the kind, grandfatherly keeper of the flame to suddenly transforming into this Machiavellian manipulator seeking to undermine RR at every turn (and succeeding) behind the scenes don't pass the smell test.

I can understand people criticizing Carr's coaching decisions, and some of the bad losses late in his tenure, but some people seemed to have an irrational hatred of the guy, and attribute these superhuman powers of manipulation to him. If all that were true, he wouldn't have retired when he did, he probably would've had a better coaching record too.

So far (CH. 8 I think), he hasn't been shown to be a master manipulator. There's the releasing of players and you could argue the failure to go out of his way and crack down on alumni dissent, but that's it.

 

[deathroh]

Yeah, I was wondering if there was more than the 'offering to sign anyone's release' thing that was reported in detnews. If that's the main thing, along with a few (probably good) recommendations.....eh.....seems a little unnecessary, and could have contributed to a small bit of the exodus, but it's definitely not going to change my opinion of him.

I'll be ordering the book shortly.

 

[Michchamp]

well, to me, recommending players transfer sounds pretty manipulative.

how many players were actually released? I know Mallett left. Boren left after spring practice started.

 

[deathroh]

well, to me, recommending players transfer sounds pretty manipulative.

how many players were actually released? I know Mallett left. Boren left after spring practice started.

I guess Mallett was the only one that came to mind, and in his case, he definitely made the right decision.

 

[redandguilty]

well, to me, recommending players transfer sounds pretty manipulative.

how many players were actually released? I know Mallett left. Boren left after spring practice started.

Mallett, Arrington and Manningham (who it says planned to bolt for the NFL anyway), Boren, and Clemons, "among others". It also says Carr encouraged some to leave that decided to stay, but it doesn't say who.

 

[TheVictors]

Clemons has been a bust in Boulder ....

 

[Michchamp]

What exactly does signing a release for a player mean? Release from the scholarship, right? Which would... allow them to transfer if they otherwise could not? was that really manipulative? I mean, I can't imagine Carr doing that for players if BM or RR wouldn't have wanted him to, or it was otherwise unprecedented for a coach to do that.

 

[deathroh]

What exactly does signing a release for a player mean? Release from the scholarship, right? Which would... allow them to transfer if they otherwise could not? was that really manipulative? I mean, I can't imagine Carr doing that for players if BM or RR wouldn't have wanted him to, or it was otherwise unprecedented for a coach to do that.

From the portion I read on detnews it sounded like the Carr loyalist compliance guy was adamant that Carr would want the option of signing the release before RR got involved. If that's true I guess it raises a flag, but not a big one, and who knows if it is true.

Does the book delve any deeper into that, Red?

 

[GoBlueInAtlanta]

I was up way too late reading last night. Today is going to suck. It's a more entertaining read than I had expected.

...and I wouldn't mind if Rosenberg moved to the other side of the country and I never heard of him again.

So, Red, was it a hard day to get through without your beauty sleep? Red? RED!?!

Someone shake Red so he can respond.

 

[redandguilty]

I was up way too late reading last night. Today is going to suck. It's a more entertaining read than I had expected.

...and I wouldn't mind if Rosenberg moved to the other side of the country and I never heard of him again.

So, Red, was it a hard day to get through without your beauty sleep? Red? RED!?!

Someone shake Red so he can respond.

Huh..? Wha-?? Um...no, I was just resting my eyes.

 

[redandguilty]

What exactly does signing a release for a player mean? Release from the scholarship, right? Which would... allow them to transfer if they otherwise could not? was that really manipulative? I mean, I can't imagine Carr doing that for players if BM or RR wouldn't have wanted him to, or it was otherwise unprecedented for a coach to do that.

From the portion I read on detnews it sounded like the Carr loyalist compliance guy was adamant that Carr would want the option of signing the release before RR got involved. If that's true I guess it raises a flag, but not a big one, and who knows if it is true.

Does the book delve any deeper into that, Red?

Carr addressed the team before RR got there offering to sign releases. Scott Draper warned compliance of the possibility of a bunch of transfer requests, a compliance officer told Judy Van Horn, Van Horn told Bill Martin and then called RR. RR asked for Michigan to not release anyone until he at least had a chance to talk to them. The request was passed back to Draper who said "But Lloyd won't like that." Nothing is said of how Carr reacted but that's how it went. Lloyd sign transfers, but only after RR got a chance to at least talk on the phone.

 

[Michchamp]

does it go into more detail about Carr being the first guy to call RR? when did it (allegedly) take place? RR told his players he was leaving on Dec. 16, 2007, had officially resigned from WVU on Dec. 18th although he listed his resignation date as Jan. 3, 2008 to fulfill his year of the contract... nice try. At the Cap One Bowl on Jan. 1st, RR certainly looked like an outsider. I wonder if the rupture between Carr-RR happened before then, or after? There's different ways you can interpret the fact that he was not on the sidelines or in the locker room after that game, and not all of them are negative.

Since neither party commented for the book, I'm guessing it's all conjecture, but I would imagine that the conversation went south pretty quickly.

 

[redandguilty]

does it go into more detail about Carr being the first guy to call RR? when did it (allegedly) take place? RR told his players he was leaving on Dec. 16, 2007, had officially resigned from WVU on Dec. 18th although he listed his resignation date as Jan. 3, 2008 to fulfill his year of the contract... nice try. At the Cap One Bowl on Jan. 1st, RR certainly looked like an outsider. I wonder if the rupture between Carr-RR happened before then, or after? There's different ways you can interpret the fact that he was not on the sidelines or in the locker room after that game, and not all of them are negative.

Since neither party commented for the book, I'm guessing it's all conjecture, but I would imagine that the conversation went south pretty quickly.

Lloyd made a 10-15 minute call on Dec 10th, the same day (according to the book) Les Miles told Coleman and Martin via phone "If you want me, then after the bowl game, I will be your coach-I just can't do anything before that." ... "I would never say no to Michigan"

The call from Lloyd, according to RR's recollection, was very positive and Carr was encouraging him to think about it. According to 3 unnamed sources, Carr became the 1st person to encourage BMartin to think about RR.

 

[redandguilty]

Personally, as I look at the MGoBlog commentary, I think that crowd is missing a point made in the book...I better go to spoiler font:

One of the main things people over there are upset with Lloyd over is the animosity RR got from Lloyd's players. They think he should have controlled as they think Bo would have. But they fail to take into account a story in the book about RR and BMartin's treatment of Lloyd's assistant coaches, which wasn't intended to slight anyone, but pissed people off all the same. I suspect a lot of the animosity from "Carr's camp" might have started right there, in fact, it might be that Carr became upset with RR following their lead and not the other way around as everyone seems to assume.

 

[redandguilty]

someone dug this up on the other board http://detnews.com/article/20071218/SPORTS0201/712180377/Carr-has-warm-welcome#ixzz1bvKiZblN

 

[hungry]

so Lloyd promoted RR for the job so he could prevent Les from getting it...or that is the picture we're supposed to get. Then Lloyd undermined RR, especially after RR fired all of his buddies.