Stupid Book

[redandguilty]

so Lloyd promoted RR for the job so he could prevent Les from getting it...or that is the picture we're supposed to get. Then Lloyd undermined RR, especially after RR fired all of his buddies.

I'm still not convinced Lloyd set out to undermined him. There are two things: 1) steering recruits away from the program and 2) people in "Lloyd's camp" undermining being viewed as Lloyd's work even though there's no evidence he was a part of it.

He steered some of his recruits away, but if he has to protect Michigan at the expense of his recruits or protect his recruits at the expense of Michigan, what do you expect him to do?

The rest is speculation. People seem to think Lloyd was anti-RR first which motivated all his assistants and former players to become anti-RR. It makes far more sense to me that RR upset Lloyd's assistants with the help of Bill Martin when he was 1st hired (which is in the book). Lloyd stayed quiet out of loyalty to his assistants and his players were probably influenced by the assistants rather than by Lloyd. ...so I suspect it's exactly opposite of what everyone else is thinking.

 

[hungry]

I repeat, this is the picture that we're supposed to get. Of course, its all speculation and we are left to take Bacon's word on most/all of this.

 

[Michchamp]

I should get the book today or tomorrow.

that link you posted is interesting, Red.

based on my impressions of Carr, BM, and RR, I'm guessing RR did something along the way to piss off Carr, and pretty much everyone in the Ath Dept except for BM. the link seems to confirm that.

RR may not have done it on purpose (initially), but he was a pretty abrasive guy, and never did seem to get along well with others. it was pretty much his MO. he certainly wouldn't have tried to make amends, and by the end of the season when his shitty coaching had left us WORSE than we were when we started, and yet he was openly throwing Carr & his recruits under the bus, it was clear to me (at least) that he was not going to be able to handle the job. And after that, there was really no way he was going to be able to repair the bridges he burned with the Michigan establishment. I put the blame squarely on him at that point. Even if you want to grant that the hole he landed in might've been dug by someone else, he never did anything to get out of it. At SOME point, you have to judge a man by his actions and their consequences. I mean... unless you are a High Priest of the Excuse Making tribe. Then, you never have to do that.

as far as the conspiracy theorists who blame Carr, I don't understand how they could maintain all along that Carr was some dim-lightbulb that only got the job because of nepotism, and any Joe Beercan off the street could do a better job in the role... and yet, flip a switch in 2008 and Carr becomes this master manipulator, hiding behind every corner in Schembechler hall, undermining RR at every turn, and covering his tracks so successfully that no one could pin anything on him... yeah right.

 

[Michchamp]

based on my impressions of Carr, BM, and RR, I'm guessing RR did something along the way to piss off Carr, and pretty much everyone in the Ath Dept except for BM.

RR may not have done it on purpose (initially), but he was a pretty abrasive guy, and never did seem to get along well with others. it was pretty much his MO. he certainly wouldn't have tried to make amends, and by the end of the season when his shitty coaching had left us WORSE than we were when we started, and yet he was openly throwing Carr & his recruits under the bus, it was clear to me (at least) that he was not going to be able to handle the job.

Look at the way RR left WVU, his relations with other Big Ten coaches from the get-go, the way he would whine to the media, the way he ratted on other Big Ten teams when he felt they didn't get called for penalties, the dumb coaching hires and dismissals on his staff... the guy just didn't get along well with others. (one of his many faults).

I think as an assistant coach, with a HC over him keeping the peace and handling the personal relations with other members of the staff, RR might have been able to do the job, but as an HC, his personality and associated flaws were just too apparent.

 

[hungry]

I should get the book today or tomorrow.

that link you posted is interesting, Red.

based on my impressions of Carr, BM, and RR, I'm guessing RR did something along the way to piss off Carr, and pretty much everyone in the Ath Dept except for BM. the link seems to confirm that.

RR may not have done it on purpose (initially), but he was a pretty abrasive guy, and never did seem to get along well with others. it was pretty much his MO. he certainly wouldn't have tried to make amends, and by the end of the season when his shitty coaching had left us WORSE than we were when we started, and yet he was openly throwing Carr & his recruits under the bus, it was clear to me (at least) that he was not going to be able to handle the job. And after that, there was really no way he was going to be able to repair the bridges he burned with the Michigan establishment. I put the blame squarely on him at that point. Even if you want to grant that the hole he landed in might've been dug by someone else, he never did anything to get out of it. At SOME point, you have to judge a man by his actions and their consequences. I mean... unless you are a High Priest of the Excuse Making tribe. Then, you never have to do that.

as far as the conspiracy theorists who blame Carr, I don't understand how they could maintain all along that Carr was some dim-lightbulb that only got the job because of nepotism, and any Joe Beercan off the street could do a better job in the role... and yet, flip a switch in 2008 and Carr becomes this master manipulator, hiding behind every corner in Schembechler hall, undermining RR at every turn, and covering his tracks so successfully that no one could pin anything on him... yeah right.

like fire all his buddies that had just been negotiated one year deals...I doubt Carr liked that too much

 

[hungry]

based on my impressions of Carr, BM, and RR, I'm guessing RR did something along the way to piss off Carr, and pretty much everyone in the Ath Dept except for BM.

RR may not have done it on purpose (initially), but he was a pretty abrasive guy, and never did seem to get along well with others. it was pretty much his MO. he certainly wouldn't have tried to make amends, and by the end of the season when his shitty coaching had left us WORSE than we were when we started, and yet he was openly throwing Carr & his recruits under the bus, it was clear to me (at least) that he was not going to be able to handle the job.

Look at the way RR left WVU, his relations with other Big Ten coaches from the get-go, the way he would whine to the media, the way he ratted on other Big Ten teams when he felt they didn't get called for penalties, the dumb coaching hires and dismissals on his staff... the guy just didn't get along well with others. (one of his many faults).

I think as an assistant coach, with a HC over him keeping the peace and handling the personal relations with other members of the staff, RR might have been able to do the job, but as an HC, his personality and associated flaws were just too apparent.

RichRod surely did a lot of things the wrong way. No argument there.

 

[redandguilty]

I should get the book today or tomorrow.

that link you posted is interesting, Red.

based on my impressions of Carr, BM, and RR, I'm guessing RR did something along the way to piss off Carr, and pretty much everyone in the Ath Dept except for BM. the link seems to confirm that.

RR may not have done it on purpose (initially), but he was a pretty abrasive guy, and never did seem to get along well with others. it was pretty much his MO. he certainly wouldn't have tried to make amends, and by the end of the season when his shitty coaching had left us WORSE than we were when we started, and yet he was openly throwing Carr & his recruits under the bus, it was clear to me (at least) that he was not going to be able to handle the job. And after that, there was really no way he was going to be able to repair the bridges he burned with the Michigan establishment. I put the blame squarely on him at that point. Even if you want to grant that the hole he landed in might've been dug by someone else, he never did anything to get out of it. At SOME point, you have to judge a man by his actions and their consequences. I mean... unless you are a High Priest of the Excuse Making tribe. Then, you never have to do that.

as far as the conspiracy theorists who blame Carr, I don't understand how they could maintain all along that Carr was some dim-lightbulb that only got the job because of nepotism, and any Joe Beercan off the street could do a better job in the role... and yet, flip a switch in 2008 and Carr becomes this master manipulator, hiding behind every corner in Schembechler hall, undermining RR at every turn, and covering his tracks so successfully that no one could pin anything on him... yeah right.

like fire all his buddies that had just been negotiated one year deals...I doubt Carr liked that too much

I really think that's the key to Carr's silence and I'm pretty frustrated that it looks like the MGoBlog zeitgeist is going to pretend that never happened. Or as I just posted over there:

Search the kindle edition for "Gittleson" Go back about a page or two and read a few pages.

"Any labor lawyer can tell you it's not firing employees that generates lawsuits but the way you fire them. And this was not handled well-creating another layer of well-connected insiders who would have no love for Rodriguez, no mixed feelings if he failed, and no hesitation about spreading their views on the matter."



It's starting to feel like I got the only copy of the book where that page didn't accidentally get omitted, that's not specifically pointed at the author of the post I'm replying to, but this most of this thread and Brian's post all seem to follow this "Lloyd was upset first and for no apparent reason" idea, when you got the Detroit News reporting a very supportive Lloyd Carr on Dec. 17th and this mass firing being handled wrong on Dec. 20th.

"the author of the post I'm replying to" being someone on MGoBlog arguing that everyone knew they would be fired because Lloyd got them an extra year's pay.

 

[Michchamp]

Does the book go into detail on how they were fired? Obviously given the way the Bo-to-Mo and Mo-to-Carr transitions were conducted set a precedent for keeping the assistants on staff. Bo's famous quote was "only one guy leaves, and his name is Schembechler."

Wouldn't it have been great if RR retained DeBord and English as his assistants? Defense would've remained solid. We could've probably kept Mallett and built on a more pass-heavy spread, until this year, when Denard could take over...

Loeffler could've taught him to throw...

The thought occurred to me while I was watching Cap One Bowl that they started out running draws from the shotgun to show RR that the current staff could handle running his offense if they wanted to. Maybe RR took it as a slight, that they were able to do stuff like that (aside from the QB runs) in only a couple weeks of prep?

 

[TheVictors]

I do recall that.

DeBord asked Indy Colts OC to come in and consult on the 'spread' that the Colts were running with Manning & Addai (whoever) during the time between losing to Ohio* and the CapOne Bowl game.

It resembles some of the 'hybrid' calls by Borges when using Gardner and DRob so far.

 

[Michchamp]

like fire all his buddies that had just been negotiated one year deals...I doubt Carr liked that too much

I really think that's the key to Carr's silence and I'm pretty frustrated that it looks like the MGoBlog zeitgeist is going to pretend that never happened. Or as I just posted over there:


It's starting to feel like I got the only copy of the book where that page didn't accidentally get omitted, that's not specifically pointed at the author of the post I'm replying to, but this most of this thread and Brian's post all seem to follow this "Lloyd was upset first and for no apparent reason" idea, when you got the Detroit News reporting a very supportive Lloyd Carr on Dec. 17th and this mass firing being handled wrong on Dec. 20th.

"the author of the post I'm replying to" being someone on MGoBlog arguing that everyone knew they would be fired because Lloyd got them an extra year's pay.

It blows my mind that anyone who watched the same Lloyd Carr that I did all these years, knows how long he's been with the Program, knows how Bo hired him, read Carr's initial reactions to the hire, as well as the revelations that HE was the first one to talk to RR... could believe he would suddenly pull a 180 for NO REASON, and turn into this evil, cunning figure with a burning desire to do nothing but bring RR down. Like he was some sort of Shakespearean villain or something.

Someone needs to just ask MGoBrian why he hates Carr: <blockquote>"tell it to your therapist already. Get over it. Was it that one time in 1995 at Fan Day when he didn't sign your hat? I'm sure it was only a misunderstanding. He signed lots of hats that day."</blockquote>

 

[hungry]

Does the book go into detail on how they were fired? Obviously given the way the Bo-to-Mo and Mo-to-Carr transitions were conducted set a precedent for keeping the assistants on staff. Bo's famous quote was "only one guy leaves, and his name is Schembechler."

Wouldn't it have been great if RR retained DeBord and English as his assistants? Defense would've remained solid. We could've probably kept Mallett and built on a more pass-heavy spread, until this year, when Denard could take over...

Loeffler could've taught him to throw...

The thought occurred to me while I was watching Cap One Bowl that they started out running draws from the shotgun to show RR that the current staff could handle running his offense if they wanted to. Maybe RR took it as a slight, that they were able to do stuff like that (aside from the QB runs) in only a couple weeks of prep?

Come on, Arguer02. all of that is crystal ball shit. You can't assume any of that.

 

[redandguilty]

Does the book go into detail on how they were fired? Obviously given the way the Bo-to-Mo and Mo-to-Carr transitions were conducted set a precedent for keeping the assistants on staff. Bo's famous quote was "only one guy leaves, and his name is Schembechler."

Wouldn't it have been great if RR retained DeBord and English as his assistants? Defense would've remained solid. We could've probably kept Mallett and built on a more pass-heavy spread, until this year, when Denard could take over...

Loeffler could've taught him to throw...

The thought occurred to me while I was watching Cap One Bowl that they started out running draws from the shotgun to show RR that the current staff could handle running his offense if they wanted to. Maybe RR took it as a slight, that they were able to do stuff like that (aside from the QB runs) in only a couple weeks of prep?

It describes events around the firing. Who to keep was RR's call and it sounds like he invited his whole staff and hoped that everyone would come. From the fact that the Michigan assistants hung around to be interviewed I infer that they weren't anti-RR prior to being given the boot. But more than the fact that they were fired, it was the mechanics of how they were told and how they were asked to leave, which was handled poorly and was partially BMartin's fault. People were pissed after that.

 

[Michchamp]

Does the book go into detail on how they were fired? Obviously given the way the Bo-to-Mo and Mo-to-Carr transitions were conducted set a precedent for keeping the assistants on staff. Bo's famous quote was "only one guy leaves, and his name is Schembechler."

Wouldn't it have been great if RR retained DeBord and English as his assistants? Defense would've remained solid. We could've probably kept Mallett and built on a more pass-heavy spread, until this year, when Denard could take over...

Loeffler could've taught him to throw...

The thought occurred to me while I was watching Cap One Bowl that they started out running draws from the shotgun to show RR that the current staff could handle running his offense if they wanted to. Maybe RR took it as a slight, that they were able to do stuff like that (aside from the QB runs) in only a couple weeks of prep?

Come on, Arguer02. all of that is crystal ball shit. You can't assume any of that.

I know.

obviously there's no way know, but I think that if RR had retained all or most of Carr's staff he would still be here as HC.

Maybe even if he retained just the defensive staff...

I thought the firings on the offensive side of the ball could be understandable, given the offense he wanted to run, but to fire Ron English given that he couldn't bring Casteel with him... that's baffling.

and in hindsight, given that we went 3-9, well... yeah.

 

[Michchamp]

It describes events around the firing. Who to keep was RR's call and it sounds like he invited his whole staff and hoped that everyone would come. From the fact that the Michigan assistants hung around to be interviewed I infer that they weren't anti-RR prior to being given the boot. But more than the fact that they were fired, it was the mechanics of how they were told and how they were asked to leave, which was handled poorly and was partially BMartin's fault. People were pissed after that.

Hmmm... well as someone who lives in the real world, knows other real live human beings, and understands human nature that's perfectly understandable. I can't blame them for holding a grudge.

I suppose in MGoBlog land, Carr and his former assistants are still to blame for failing to spend all their remaining waking hours defending RR in the media, for free, never looking for work again even though their homes went into foreclosure and their families starved. Then, with their last remaining energy they should've formed human chains to keep Boren, Mallett, Arrington, and Manningham from leaving, and shield RR from hostile media criticism.

 

[TheVictors]

I think I'm going to have to buy this book now.

 

[hungry]

Come on, Arguer02. all of that is crystal ball shit. You can't assume any of that.

I know.

obviously there's no way know, but I think that if RR had retained all or most of Carr's staff he would still be here as HC.

Maybe even if he retained just the defensive staff...

I thought the firings on the offensive side of the ball could be understandable, given the offense he wanted to run, but to fire Ron English given that he couldn't bring Casteel with him... that's baffling.

and in hindsight, given that we went 3-9, well... yeah.

Well, truly, we don't even KNOW that any of the assistants wanted to stay on under RR. They all knew that they were secure for a year and that they would probably catch on elsewhere, be it TE coach for the Bears or Head coach of EMU.

 

[redandguilty]

http://www.thehugeshow.net/FlashPlayer/default.asp?SPID=23371&ID=2319116

Bacon interview. 18:20, Carr loyalists say RR is out AND Brady Hoke is in back in May 2010.

 

[Michchamp]

so... according to U. Bacon, Carr was not on the search committee. MSC vetoed Ferentz before the search even started because of all the off-field issues his players had.

BM botches the Les Miles hire, Schiano says no, clock is ticking but nothing happens really until Carr calls RR on Dec. 10th (Monday). Carr talks to BM the next day... then RR hired 6 days later (Monday Dec. 17th). The following Tues or Weds, Carr calls a team meeting and offers to sign transfers that day (?), which was either the same day, or the day after he told the DetNews nice things about RR, and waived off the comments from the press about RR not being a "Michigan Man." Strange timing there.

Hmmm...

*sticks finger in air*

EUREKA! The ONLY plausible explanation is that Carr hated BM and RR for no reason, and arranged for RR to get hired so he could undermine him, then get the program sanctioned, and in the end get both BM and RR fired... BRILLIANT!

 

[redandguilty]

so... according to U. Bacon, Carr was not on the search committee. MSC vetoed Ferentz before the search even started because of all the off-field issues his players had.

BM botches the Les Miles hire, Schiano says no, clock is ticking but nothing happens really until Carr calls RR on Dec. 10th (Monday). Carr talks to BM the next day... then RR hired 6 days later (Monday Dec. 17th). The following Tues or Weds, Carr calls a team meeting and offers to sign transfers that day (?), which was either the same day, or the day after he told the DetNews nice things about RR, and waived off the comments from the press about RR not being a "Michigan Man." Strange timing there.

Hmmm...

*sticks finger in air*

EUREKA! The ONLY plausible explanation is that Carr hated BM and RR for no reason, and arranged for RR to get hired so he could undermine him, then get the program sanctioned, and in the end get both BM and RR fired... BRILLIANT!

I think that's what some people actually think. "Carr was so mad that it wasn't English, DeBord and Co. that he went out and got the worst fit for the players he had, then he ran them off, then he ordered his minions to leak stuff to the Freep." Nobody's saying it, you have to read between the lines, but I think some people believe it. Bacon's claim that he left out rumors he couldn't verify gives them the wiggle room they need to make it possible I guess.

 

[Michchamp]

does he cite his sources in the book? either in the text, or in footnotes?

after listening to that interview, I'm starting to think this book may not be so hot...

He claims all his stuff was substantiated fact... but unless BM, Carr, or RR himself talked to him directly, how could he have known what was said at their lunch meeting in '09? iffy. Sounds like if he went by what he could prove in a court of law, i.e. if he excluded hearsay, this would've been a much shorter book.