Fister Traded, now is retiring from baseball

[SouthOfMackinac]

The way the other GMs around the league sounded, no one else knew Fister was even available. It's almost like DD rushed it..

On paper the deal smells.

Seattle LOVED what they got at the time also. I'll admit, I still had Jarrod Washburn on the brain when the trade happened. First time I watched Fister pitch though I was over it. Fister is a solid number Three pitcher for most teams. Ray is predicted as a "middle of the order" guy which is Three or Four.

Krol is a HUGE piece of this trade that people conveniently forget. All those times you see him WOULD be Coke otherwise. Give DD some measure of credit for helping there. He got two lefties for an organization overloaded with right handers.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

It is funny how your first two posts are in two different threads, attacking something I had posted.

Anyways...there are two credible prospect website, Baseball Prospectus and Baseball America. Can you find where Robbie Ray is in the Top 100 at either site?

Fister is a proven commodity, which has more value than pitcher who until the trade didn't project any higher than a #4-5 Starter, and that is only IF he developed a viable secondary or tertiary pitch.

And you are dead wrong about the Fister trade. He was viewed to be a #2-3 starter. I don't know where you get the #5 crap.

MLB.com has Robbie Ray 97 (I linked it to his name). Those lists are arbitrary so you can pan the source if you like.

"We've had several pitchers in the fifth spot, and we haven't been able to get any consistent performance. Phil Coke deserved better than his record, but I think things are going better with him in the bullpen," Dombrowski said. LINK

Not attacking you, I just don't think you are correct in your statements that appeared to "attack" others who share my opinion. I remember you from ESPN boards, no need to be sensitive.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Seattle LOVED what they got at the time also. I'll admit, I still had Jarrod Washburn on the brain when the trade happened. First time I watched Fister pitch though I was over it. Fister is a solid number Three pitcher for most teams. Ray is predicted as a "middle of the order" guy which is Three or Four.

Krol is a HUGE piece of this trade that people conveniently forget. All those times you see him WOULD be Coke otherwise. Give DD some measure of credit for helping there. He got two lefties for an organization overloaded with right handers.

I noticed Coke is still pitching. Krol had no effect on that..Fister is a number 2, regardless where he fit on our team. Ray does not have #3 potential. One day maybe but I don't see anyone says he's a future number 3. Being barely inside 100 prospect at age 23 does not excite me.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

I noticed Coke is still pitching. Krol had no effect on that..Fister is a number 2, regardless where he fit on our team. Ray does not have #3 potential. One day maybe but I don't see anyone says he's a future number 3. Being barely inside 100 prospect at age 23 does not excite me.

Jonathan Mayo and Jim Callis of MLB.com offered the following take on Ray: ?Ray throws his fastball in the low-90s and can reach back for a tick more velocity when he needs it. His slider can look slurvy at times, but the best ones have good depth. He has a good feel for his changeup, which is a more consistent offering. His command has improved, but he would benefit from further refinement. Ray is a good athlete and has proven to be durable. He relies more on pitchability than overpowering stuff to get outs, but he has what it takes to succeed as a middle-of-the-rotation starter.? LINK



Coke is pitching nothing but mop-up duty. Krol is pitching in actual situations. I know you know that.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Jonathan Mayo and Jim Callis of MLB.com offered the following take on Ray: ?Ray throws his fastball in the low-90s and can reach back for a tick more velocity when he needs it. His slider can look slurvy at times, but the best ones have good depth. He has a good feel for his changeup, which is a more consistent offering. His command has improved, but he would benefit from further refinement. Ray is a good athlete and has proven to be durable. He relies more on pitchability than overpowering stuff to get outs, but he has what it takes to succeed as a middle-of-the-rotation starter.? LINK



Coke is pitching nothing but mop-up duty. Krol is pitching in actual situations. I know you know that.

I could post a bunch of articles saying it was a bad trade. I saw on baseball prospectus, which I trust..Ray was #89 pre 2011. Now he's out of the top 100. Big time ML are suppose to improve their status..I see his upside atm #5. I could change my opinion but that's where I see him at now.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

I could post a bunch of articles saying it was a bad trade. I saw on baseball prospectus, which I trust..Ray was #89 pre 2011. Now he's out of the top 100. Big time ML are suppose to improve their status..I see his upside atm #5. I could change my opinion but that's where I see him at now.

I'm not talking about the TRADE is the difference. I'm looking at the pitcher the Tigers have now. For the last two seasons Robbie Ray has pitched well. I posted the portion of the article because I think it is a good assessment of the pitcher and what we can expect.

So if "Big time ML are suppose to improve their status" why wasn't Fister ever a top 100 prospect? Apparently a pitcher can't be good unless he is on the list so how do we explain Fister being a number 2? Rankings don't mean much. I list them only because there is an obvious infatuation with them among posters here.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Last two, I assume you're not taking about 2012?

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

Last two, I assume you're not taking about 2012?

This season and last season, correct. I think he figured something out as his numbers have been consistent since Spring of 2013.

Were you trolling with your "Coke is still pitching, Krol hasn't affected that"? Is the hatred for the trade so blinding that some can't see Krol is already paying dividends by keeping Coke off the mound in close games? Krol will impact a lot of games this season. JP Howell is who I wanted and he was 5M+ per season LINK Krol is an important piece in this BP and is pitching like it.

I like DD and think he has done way more good than harm. Because of that, I am willing to be patient on the Fister trade. Giving Lombo away still makes me wince some days I'll admit.

 

[Mitchrapp]

This season and last season, correct. I think he figured something out as his numbers have been consistent since Spring of 2013.

Were you trolling with your "Coke is still pitching, Krol hasn't affected that"? Is the hatred for the trade so blinding that some can't see Krol is already paying dividends by keeping Coke off the mound in close games? Krol will impact a lot of games this season. JP Howell is who I wanted and he was 5M+ per season LINK Krol is an important piece in this BP and is pitching like it.

I like DD and think he has done way more good than harm. Because of that, I am willing to be patient on the Fister trade. Giving Lombo away still makes me wince some days I'll admit.

I'm saying he's still pitching. Some of those mop up games eventually became oh shit games. Imo, whether Krol was here or not I suspect Coke with the way he's pitching would still have the mop up title. Krol doesn't excite me as much as he does you..

 

[jdbaker1]

Let me start by saying that I think DD has done a pretty good job. More often than not over the past few years I think his good moves have outweighed his bad ones. The Tigers have achieved greater consistant success over the last few years than they have in a long time and that has a lot to do with him. I know the minors are pretty bare but the big league ball club is once again one of the AL favorites to make the WS. That being said, I think the Fister trade defies logic. Maybe Ray turns out to be as good or better than Fister but I think you are taking a huge chance in trading an established talent for an unproven one. Fister wasn't making a whole lot of money so I think he was still a bargain. I also think that the window for this team is starting to close and you have to try and win now. I think that even if Ray ends up being very good, it won't be this year and therefore it weakens the team for this year. Smyly could very well be legit as a starter but he has left a void in a already suspect pen. Hated the deal when it was made and still hate it today. Would love to be wrong about this but I don't see it. If the Tigers win it all though and Ray ends up being a stud thereby improving the team long term as well I will be wrong and happy.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

I think the Fister trade defies logic. Maybe Ray turns out to be as good or better than Fister but I think you are taking a huge chance in trading an established talent for an unproven one. Fister wasn't making a whole lot of money so I think he was still a bargain. I also think that the window for this team is starting to close and you have to try and win now. I think that even if Ray ends up being very good, it won't be this year and therefore it weakens the team for this year.

I didn't think much of the trade at the time but I have to admit I like it more now. You make valid points but my "defense" of it is rooted in logic.

1. Trading Fister this year made him worth more. Waiting one more season to trade him would have made him a rental and thus worth less. Tampa Bay did this with Shields who I think is comparable to Fister.

2. Porcello is ready to be Fister in the rotation. This was DD's gamble and thus far he is being proven correct. The additional part to this was "Is Smyly ready to be Porcello?" and that answer also appears to be a yes and adds variety to an otherwise Five man RHP rotation.

3. Someone needed to go. Porcello couldn't bring a return like Fister. Gotta give to get.

4. Krol - you need a situational lefty. Krol's numbers vs. Lefties are absurd (.111 this season - .220 last season) and he only costs 500k.

5. You need starting pitching depth in the minors. Nobody traded quality pitching prospects this off-season. When I learned this (back in February) I took a second look at the trade. The Tigers acquired the best young pitcher in trade of all the teams. If rankings matter, this is significant. GM's can feign shock that they didn't get a call but I'll bet DD knew they were gonna try and package some crap while hoarding their gems. Ray was the best (young) bet in a tight market.

This team didn't win a WS with Fister, without him I don't think their chances are that much worse. Having lefties for teams like Cleveland and Kansas City is meaningful. DD got two in the trade. He has his eye on today and the future.

We know they have 24M dollars available to spend on players if (when) Max leaves. If Ray, Smyly and Porcello fall down they can be players for a vet in 2016. They have a quality squad for years to come.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Wil Meyers is and was a better prospect than Ray so if Fister and Shields are similar .. I think you get my drift.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

Wil Meyers is and was a better prospect than Ray so if Fister and Shields are similar .. I think you get my drift.

Tigers got Krol, Ray and Lombardozzi. Two of the three are in the majors today. Wade Davis went with Shields and (at the time) was thought to be worth something.

It also indicates position prospects are traded more often than pitching prospects...

 

[Mitchrapp]

Tigers got Krol, Ray and Lombardozzi. Two of the three are in the majors today. Wade Davis went with Shields and (at the time) was thought to be worth something.

It also indicates position prospects are traded more often than pitching prospects...

Who cares about how often a pitcher gets traded..Lombarzzi might be in the majors but not for us and the guy we traded him for isn't with us either..but that's another topic. Depends where you look Meyers was a top 4-7 prospect before last season. Ray, 97 to not being rated at all.

Bottom line, on paper - we got screwed.

 

[spockmaster]

Lombardozzi is in AAA now that Machado is back.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

Who cares about how often a pitcher gets traded..
Bottom line, on paper - we got screwed.

How often young pitchers are traded is EXACTLY the point. Why is that so elusive? Teams are not trading young pitching prospects. Look at the transaction wire for top 100 pitching prospects traded in the last year.

The more people say we got "screwed" the more I am sure DD made a good move.

 

[Mitchrapp]

How often young pitchers are traded is EXACTLY the point. Why is that so elusive? Teams are not trading young pitching prospects. Look at the transaction wire for top 100 pitching prospects traded in the last year.

The more people say we got "screwed" the more I am sure DD made a good move.

So let's trade Porcello for mop up prospect. Which is my point, how about we trade Nick C for the 97 best prospect (pitcher). Who cares how often it happens if we're not getting enough in return.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

So let's trade Porcello for mop up prospect. Which is my point, how about we trade Nick C for the 97 best prospect (pitcher). Who cares how often it happens if we're not getting enough in return.

Porcello for mop-up makes no sense. Nobody will give you a top 50 pitching prospect for Nick C. That's the point. Teams are holding on to their young pitching like never before. This is what made the Ray trade interesting. Veteran number threes with two years on their deals get moved frequently.

How did Fister become so valuable without being a top 100 prospect? Since it is obvious Robbie Ray's career will be a bust since he isn't ranked high enough. How was it possible for Fister to overcome such a seemingly insurmountable obstacle?

 

[jdbaker1]

I didn't think much of the trade at the time but I have to admit I like it more now. You make valid points but my "defense" of it is rooted in logic.

1. Trading Fister this year made him worth more. Waiting one more season to trade him would have made him a rental and thus worth less. Tampa Bay did this with Shields who I think is comparable to Fister.

2. Porcello is ready to be Fister in the rotation. This was DD's gamble and thus far he is being proven correct. The additional part to this was "Is Smyly ready to be Porcello?" and that answer also appears to be a yes and adds variety to an otherwise Five man RHP rotation.

3. Someone needed to go. Porcello couldn't bring a return like Fister. Gotta give to get.

4. Krol - you need a situational lefty. Krol's numbers vs. Lefties are absurd (.111 this season - .220 last season) and he only costs 500k.

5. You need starting pitching depth in the minors. Nobody traded quality pitching prospects this off-season. When I learned this (back in February) I took a second look at the trade. The Tigers acquired the best young pitcher in trade of all the teams. If rankings matter, this is significant. GM's can feign shock that they didn't get a call but I'll bet DD knew they were gonna try and package some crap while hoarding their gems. Ray was the best (young) bet in a tight market.

This team didn't win a WS with Fister, without him I don't think their chances are that much worse. Having lefties for teams like Cleveland and Kansas City is meaningful. DD got two in the trade. He has his eye on today and the future.

We know they have 24M dollars available to spend on players if (when) Max leaves. If Ray, Smyly and Porcello fall down they can be players for a vet in 2016. They have a quality squad for years to come.

I really hope you are right. I agree that trading Fister earlier rather than later should have made him more valuable. I think that DD could have gotten more value that better filled the needs of the Tigers right now. Would love to be proven wrong.

 

[Thumb]

3. Someone needed to go. Porcello couldn't bring a return like Fister. Gotta give to get.

Can you explain why someone needed to go? We had the deepest rotation in baseball, Smyly was doing well in the bullpen, which was a problem area.

So we weakened the rotation and the bullpen in the same move, because someone had to go?