3 Way Done deal , Tigers get Price !!

[Mitchrapp]

I feel like the Tigers just got the equivalent of Peyton Manning in exchange for Brandon Pettigrew and Joique Bell. I think we're all a bit too spoiled by how deep our pitching has been in previous seasons to appreciate how good Price is and what he brings to Detroit.

DD signed Nathan and traded for Soria. Can't just keep throwing shit at the RP wall until something sticks. I also think Soria will get back on track, he's been to good this season to all of the sudden be Phil Coke.

That's probably accurate but remember that Manning didn't win a SB because the other side of the ball, not so good.

 

[spockmaster]

I checked around a few random comment sections, looks like in general, rays fans are livid that they didnt get a lot more for price and a's fans seem to be a little crushed, both of which i find highly amusing.

 

[Mitchrapp]

I checked around a few random comment sections, looks like in general, rays fans are livid that they didnt get a lot more for price and a's fans seem to be a little crushed, both of which i find highly amusing.

Bummer :hehe: honestly I don't think they got enough either..

 

[sggatecl]

That's probably accurate but remember that Manning didn't win a SB because the other side of the ball, not so good.

Also an excellent point. I really wish they had grabbed a bat but I just don't see who they could've pursued.

Marlon Byrd? Phillies wanted more than what we paid for Price and we really don't need a guy that hits .270 and strikes out a ton. I don't care if he gets 30 HR, that's the type of guy that fizzles in the playoffs against good pitching.

He's pretty much all I can think of, maybe someone else has a suggestion.

 

[dpinsea]

I like Ajax about as much as anyone but Price is top 5 in the AL...... have to give something up to get that kind of talent. Plus now we wont have to complain about "inaction " Jackson refusing to dive for balls! Seriously though, DD is trying to win this year and i like the agressivness. Cant wait to send Oakland packing for a third straight year.

 

[dpinsea]

On a side note I get to see Ajax everyday now! Tigers West!

 

[Rebbiv]

I feel like the Tigers just got the equivalent of Peyton Manning in exchange for Brandon Pettigrew and Joique Bell. I think we're all a bit too spoiled by how deep our pitching has been in previous seasons to appreciate how good Price is and what he brings to Detroit.

DD signed Nathan and traded for Soria. Can't just keep throwing shit at the RP wall until something sticks. I also think Soria will get back on track, he's been to good this season to all of the sudden be Phil Coke.

I think you analogy is off a bit. We traded Safford, Pettigrew and 1x young player for Rogers.

 

[Rebbiv]

Well first off, I have never said it wasn't a great deal. Just that we paid a heavy price, and didn't really address our biggest concern, which has been a power LH bat.

The fact that I think Ajax is going to be tough to replace in production terms does not mean I didn't approve of trading him. I think some of you read more than what is on the screen. Also for those couple of you who brought up his OPS...forget those averages and look at the counting stats, because that's what we will miss.

In the end we made 2 moves, but neither was the move I think we really needed. Price (and Soria lol) is going to help, but were not going to win a WS because we got a pitcher, no matter how good he is. The bonus is he's ours for 2015 as well, and we might be able to repackage him for a nice haul as well.

This right here.

I have yet to post anything specific about Price. I like Price and I would place him ahead of any of the other starters, including Scherzer.

I agree "on paper", DET didn't give up much to get Price. Jackson and Smyly, "on paper", are not a steep price. Yet, if you subtract them from the team, we got weaker in CF and postseason relief and not much better in starting pitching the remainder of this year and the playoffs. And I still can have an opinion that Jackson was an average CFer and still think with are worse off without him based on who is replacing him. And it isn't being contradictory.

But, this team has glaring weaknesses outside of the bullpen. Who plays OF in 2015? Are we resigning Victor? What about Hunter? What happens if 2014 J.D. Martinez is a "fluke" (I know this will come back and haunt me)? What changes are coming for the bullpen? What happens if Castellanos is no better than what he is this year?


If neither Scherzer or Price are signed to an extension. And if DET doesn't win the World Series this year or next, then this will not big a good trade not matter what.

 

[Rebbiv]

Well a month or so ago I posted data from an article comparing ERA+ and OPS+ from all the WS winners, and the data very much spoke to how the best pitching teams win more frequently.

The issue became whether those particular stats were even worth bringing into a discussion like this. Do you feel they are?

I believe you and I were at an impasse with this, no? Certainly, using those particular stats the article was correct. The debate dealt with the "park factor" element of those stats that placed Comerica Park as a top hitter's park and how viable that data would be.

But my question wasn't directed at you.

But now that it is open. There was a recent article on how Team Payroll is what determines World Series winners. Another article concerning teams with the highest SRS winning. My personal believe is teams with good patience/working the count perform better.

We all have heard, probably from a early age, that pitching and defense wins. Do you we just blindly accept that premise? How about doing your own research and formulating your own opinion without being influenced by the talking heads.

"Your best hitter is your cleanup hitter." Or #3. Why not leading off? Because it goes against everything that has been instilled in us since we starting learning baseball. It is a different idea, based in sound reasoning. Yet, many scoff at it and discount it as being viable.

While strong pitching is certainly needed in the playoffs, I am not too sure a consistent offense ends up winning more time than not. But, we don't have a consistent offense and it would probably require replacing 1/3 the offense to get there. It is easier just to upgrade 1 position.

Now, in a 5-game series (early playoffs). Does Price over Verlander/Porcello change that much? I don't think it does. If we don't get out of the first series, then I would venture to guess it would be due to lack of offense.

Once in the ALCS, then we are at a 7-game series. But in recent years, teams still used a 4-man rotation in the ALCS. So again, how much is Price helping in the possible 2 games he pitches over Verlander/Porcello, especially if the offense doesn't show up or the bullpen collapses.

DET can absolutely have the best starting pitching in the world and not win crap. Conversely, they can have the best offense and still not win. There is a point of balance.

Many are going to point out where DET is in the standings when it comes to offense. But I am talking about "consistent" offense and that comes from drawing walks/working the count.

 

[tomdalton22]

This right here.

I have yet to post anything specific about Price. I like Price and I would place him ahead of any of the other starters, including Scherzer.

I agree "on paper", DET didn't give up much to get Price. Jackson and Smyly, "on paper", are not a steep price. Yet, if you subtract them from the team, we got weaker in CF and postseason relief and not much better in starting pitching the remainder of this year and the playoffs. And I still can have an opinion that Jackson was an average CFer and still think with are worse off without him based on who is replacing him. And it isn't being contradictory.

But, this team has glaring weaknesses outside of the bullpen. Who plays OF in 2015? Are we resigning Victor? What about Hunter? What happens if 2014 J.D. Martinez is a "fluke" (I know this will come back and haunt me)? What changes are coming for the bullpen? What happens if Castellanos is no better than what he is this year?


If neither Scherzer or Price are signed to an extension. And if DET doesn't win the World Series this year or next, then this will not big a good trade not matter what.

You are right with everything you said here...the problem is that DD and MR I don't seem to be thinking about 2015 and beyond.

 

[lonesometiger]

The real problems did not get addressed.
The real problem with pitching is the BP can not hold a lead to get to the closer that can't close.
They needed a batter, where does price hit in the lineup?! Can't think how to spell that French word. But really Tigers have a catcher that hits an ounce above his weight. Right now a short stop that swings. V-Mart is hitting but when was the last Homerun he hit? JDM fell off some. And they trade AJ just when he was starting to hit. Well they got great value anyway. But it does not help the offence.
Remember they still have to score runs to win games. And Price is not going to pitch 9 innings a game.

 

[tomdalton22]

The real problems did not get addressed.
The real problem with pitching is the BP can not hold a lead to get to the closer that can't close.
They needed a batter, where does price hit in the lineup?! Can't think how to spell that French word. But really Tigers have a catcher that hits an ounce above his weight. Right now a short stop that swings. V-Mart is hitting but when was the last Homerun he hit? JDM fell off some. And they trade AJ just when he was starting to hit. Well they got great value anyway. But it does not help the offence.
Remember they still have to score runs to win games. And Price is not going to pitch 9 innings a game.

I don't think there were any hitters available....did any get traded?

 

[dubbsco]

Rebbiv, you can have all those concerns, but you will never know how things will shake out until the season actually begins. I play the same game with all of my favorite sports teams. "Will Michigan's offensive line be any worse?" "Will Stafford finally be a good QB and not just above average?" It's impossible for any of us to guess what moves will be made, who will step up, etc...

Those things that will happen next year and the years after that, let that stuff resolve itself on its own. If the Tigers win a title now, that's all that matters. Even if they end up sucking for 3-4 years after a WS, I'll take that all day and twice on Sunday.

And I realize that Porcello is having a career year, but Price is a just a beast. I don't love pitchers that pitch to contact in the playoffs, too many flukey things in a short series. Price is leading baseball in strikeouts. That's a huge dimension to add.

 

[Rebbiv]

Rebbiv, you can have all those concerns, but you will never know how things will shake out until the season actually begins. I play the same game with all of my favorite sports teams. "Will Michigan's offensive line be any worse?" "Will Stafford finally be a good QB and not just above average?" It's impossible for any of us to guess what moves will be made, who will step up, etc...

Those things that will happen next year and the years after that, let that stuff resolve itself on its own. If the Tigers win a title now, that's all that matters. Even if they end up sucking for 3-4 years after a WS, I'll take that all day and twice on Sunday.

And I realize that Porcello is having a career year, but Price is a just a beast. I don't love pitchers that pitch to contact in the playoffs, too many flukey things in a short series. Price is leading baseball in strikeouts. That's a huge dimension to add.

Until anything happens, it is all speculation. Even your admiration of having Price for the Playoffs. He could lay a big turd.

Yet, there is an element of "best guess", based on tangible objective data. I am allowed to question that data, no?

 

[dubbsco]

Of course. So then I can make a best guess that Price will continue on his strike out rate and mow players down in the post-season.

I also believe the Tigers have the right GM in place that won't cause them to go into a tailspin. How many times in the last few years have we talked about the Tigers going into this "win now or bust mode?" And yet they continue to play well and make the post-season.

 

[Rebbiv]

Of course. So then I can make a best guess that Price will continue on his strike out rate and mow players down in the post-season.

I also believe the Tigers have the right GM in place that won't cause them to go into a tailspin. How many times in the last few years have we talked about the Tigers going into this "win now or bust mode?" And yet they continue to play well and make the post-season.

I am almost sure they make the post season without Price. Price may get 10-11 starts from here on out in the regular season. How many more times will DET win with him as the starter over Smyly giving the same amount of run support? 1? 2?

 

[dubbsco]

But that's not why they brought Price into the staff. It's not about the regular season. They brought him into the staff so in a short 5-game series in the playoffs, you can roll out Price and Scherzer and jump out to a 2-0 lead (hopefully), and then just worry about getting 1 of the last 3.

Same concept applies with a 7 game set. I like my chances with rolling out Price and Scherzer in 4 of the 7, versus having to use a guy like Porcello who I don't really love in a playoff format.

 

[UMRules06]

I believe you and I were at an impasse with this, no? Certainly, using those particular stats the article was correct. The debate dealt with the "park factor" element of those stats that placed Comerica Park as a top hitter's park and how viable that data would be.

But my question wasn't directed at you.

But now that it is open. There was a recent article on how Team Payroll is what determines World Series winners. Another article concerning teams with the highest SRS winning. My personal believe is teams with good patience/working the count perform better.

We all have heard, probably from a early age, that pitching and defense wins. Do you we just blindly accept that premise? How about doing your own research and formulating your own opinion without being influenced by the talking heads.

"Your best hitter is your cleanup hitter." Or #3. Why not leading off? Because it goes against everything that has been instilled in us since we starting learning baseball. It is a different idea, based in sound reasoning. Yet, many scoff at it and discount it as being viable.

While strong pitching is certainly needed in the playoffs, I am not too sure a consistent offense ends up winning more time than not. But, we don't have a consistent offense and it would probably require replacing 1/3 the offense to get there. It is easier just to upgrade 1 position.

Now, in a 5-game series (early playoffs). Does Price over Verlander/Porcello change that much? I don't think it does. If we don't get out of the first series, then I would venture to guess it would be due to lack of offense.

Once in the ALCS, then we are at a 7-game series. But in recent years, teams still used a 4-man rotation in the ALCS. So again, how much is Price helping in the possible 2 games he pitches over Verlander/Porcello, especially if the offense doesn't show up or the bullpen collapses.

DET can absolutely have the best starting pitching in the world and not win crap. Conversely, they can have the best offense and still not win. There is a point of balance.

Many are going to point out where DET is in the standings when it comes to offense. But I am talking about "consistent" offense and that comes from drawing walks/working the count.

I hear you, and yes I remember we had reached an impasse on that article. I admit I haven't done much other research on this subject, but I suppose I am of the opinion that I'd rather have a team full of Cy Young winners, than an all-star lineup like the Yankees have had the last decade plus. I would not call this just "blindly" accepting the premise because I've watched a lot of baseball and that's helped me form this opinion. Maybe it's just not looking deep enough I suppose?

For all their huge contracts the Yankees have thrown at position players, it was their pitching that won them championships in the late 90s with Clemens, Pettitte, Cone, and of course Rivera leading the way. Once those great starters started to leave, the championships stopped coming even with Jeter, Damon, Giambi, Sheffield, Abreu, Matsui, Arod, Posada etc. I am going off memory and not data here, but I think a lot of those guys were not just mashers, but they could work a count against you as well with the best of them. The knock against the Yankees for the past decade is that they have great lineups but average pitching (although they did win another title in 2009).

Obviously that's just one team, but it's part of why I've come to believe the premise of pitching wins. I agree with you wholeheartedly that I wish our guys would learn how to walk more and be more patient. That can only improve an offense, and help gain that consistency we are lacking. I don't know if this could have been done via trade though. We've mentioned it needs to be a philosophy change coming from within the organization itself, whether through DD or Ausmus and the coaching staff. Until that happens, I think perhaps even guys who have really great walk rates, might see that dip a little bit if they come play for our swing happy Tigers.

This trade also signals to me that the Tigers don't feel they can resign Max (which they probably can't). I'm taking that into consideration as well when I look at the trade. Now we hopefully have a replacement for him long term (need to sign him to an extension). I won't be happy if he bolts after 2015. Perhaps the Tigers turn around and trade him again next season to help plug some of these other holes we are worried about.

 

[Rebbiv]

I hear you, and yes I remember we had reached an impasse on that article. I admit I haven't done much other research on this subject, but I suppose I am of the opinion that I'd rather have a team full of Cy Young winners, than an all-star lineup like the Yankees have had the last decade plus. I would not call this just "blindly" accepting the premise because I've watched a lot of baseball and that's helped me form this opinion. Maybe it's just not looking deep enough I suppose?

For all their huge contracts the Yankees have thrown at position players, it was their pitching that won them championships in the late 90s with Clemens, Pettitte, Cone, and of course Rivera leading the way. Once those great starters started to leave, the championships stopped coming even with Jeter, Damon, Giambi, Sheffield, Abreu, Matsui, Arod, Posada etc. I am going off memory and not data here, but I think a lot of those guys were not just mashers, but they could work a count against you as well with the best of them. The knock against the Yankees for the past decade is that they have great lineups but average pitching (although they did win another title in 2009).

Obviously that's just one team, but it's part of why I've come to believe the premise of pitching wins. I agree with you wholeheartedly that I wish our guys would learn how to walk more and be more patient. That can only improve an offense, and help gain that consistency we are lacking. I don't know if this could have been done via trade though. We've mentioned it needs to be a philosophy change coming from within the organization itself, whether through DD or Ausmus and the coaching staff. Until that happens, I think perhaps even guys who have really great walk rates, might see that dip a little bit if they come play for our swing happy Tigers.

This trade also signals to me that the Tigers don't feel they can resign Max (which they probably can't). I'm taking that into consideration as well when I look at the trade. Now we hopefully have a replacement for him long term (need to sign him to an extension). I won't be happy if he bolts after 2015. Perhaps the Tigers turn around and trade him again next season to help plug some of these other holes we are worried about.

Just a quick reply...seeings I live in New York and also follow the Yankees (I am not a fan, I just watch a lot of their games).

NYY has made the playoffs all the years since 1995, except two. 2008 and 2013. Those were the only 2 years that the Yankees didn't score 800 runs in a FULL season. They also didn't score 800 runs in 1995, but that was a strike shortened season and they ended with 749 in 145 games (836 runs in 162 games).

And it really is more than just the scoring of runs. If you look at the winning BOS and NYY teams, it is their team walk rate. Even OAK wins with a team walk rate.

 

[spockmaster]

Its a shame the tigers organization seems to abhor walks and plate discipline.