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Fielder for Kinsler trade

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Fielder was not top 10 at his position. He was 12th in OPS and 19th in WAR. I know a lot of people don't like WAR (I think it is a flawed stat as well but it does have some value) but at least it does take into consideration defense.

So he was in the 12-19 range at his position and was the highest paid 1B in MLB.


Very few 1B's were ever signed because of their defense.

And you picked a very limited set of stats, not to mention you didn't even think to limit it to true first basemen. I'm assuming you are using ESPN...which has no fielding qualifiers for positions, has 2 for TOR in the top 10 one of which played 79 games at 1B, and the other 76. Joe Mauer is 6th on the OPS list and he played 8 fukin' games at 1B in 2013...whooopeeee

So I stand by what I said, Prince is a top 10 1B. Up with guys like Davis, and Votto, and Goldschmidt.


Nice try though.
 
Based on salary Justin Verlander underperformed big time too.

It's irrelevant, down years happen. I'm not justifying his contract, but there are only a few highly paid players who actually earn their money.

Yeah he did. Like I said it could have been an off year. I always hear though about power being the first to go. Now he's not going to be 30 until the season starts but if his power goes, he won't be close to worth his deal. If Fielder, and its a big if, becomes 25-30 home run guy for the next 2-3 seasons - he's not worth having. Fielder is a power hitter and needs to hit for power to be worthy.

Less home runs, become less walks and more strikeouts, IMO. And Maybe 2013 was the start? And his weight, maybe Texas park will help but that heat sure won't.

On the other side, if Kinsler becomes crap in a year or two - he'd be easier to deal with. Lower salary, easier to trade etc.
 
Very few 1B's were ever signed because of their defense.

And you picked a very limited set of stats, not to mention you didn't even think to limit it to true first basemen. I'm assuming you are using ESPN...which has no fielding qualifiers for positions, has 2 for TOR in the top 10 one of which played 79 games at 1B, and the other 76. Joe Mauer is 6th on the OPS list and he played 8 fukin' games at 1B in 2013...whooopeeee

So I stand by what I said, Prince is a top 10 1B. Up with guys like Davis, and Votto, and Goldschmidt.


Nice try though.

his shitty defense may have cost the Tigers a game in the ALCS
 
I was looking at article that talked about HR in Texas the past few years. The numbers were lower this past season which can be explained by several factors but I found this:

Texas Rangers Home Runs in 2013

From the eye test, the usual jetstream in Arlington disappeared in 2013. What did the data say?

5748714_orig.png


That’s pretty clear. From 2010-2012, the results of all home runs hit in the Ballpark in Arlington are nearly identical. Then, in 2013, it looks like a different ballpark, with both speed off the bat and distance dropping about 1%.

Obviously, the key isn’t that home run distance fell by five feet in 2013 at the Ballpark, it’s that we can project this assumption to speculate that all fly balls were about 1% shorter in 2013. Thus, a lot of warning track outs in 2013 would have flown over the fence in previous years, as we can see by the lower home run totals.

But wait, you say, the Rangers lost Josh Hamilton and Mike Napoli, of course the numbers would go down. To see if that is really the driving factor, we can look at the same data, but split it based on home runs hit by Texas players and non-Texas players. Below you will see Texas players on the left, and Texas opponents on the right:

8623476_orig.png


As you can see, both sides of the battle were equally affected by the loss of the jetstream in Arlington in 2013.

"Last offseason, the Rangers made construction changes to the area behind home plate to modify the Cuervo Club, now the Capital One Club. In this Fox Sports article on the Ballpark changes, it was speculated that the changes, which were intended to better circulate air in the Ballpark, may reduce the jetstream but “How the construction will impact the jetstream won't be known until games are played.” Well, now the games have been played and it seems obvious that we can call the jetstream dead. In physics terms, the jetstream is a wind and drag coefficient modifier that has now been more controlled."

It is what it is but maybe Texas is not going to help Fielder as much as some might think..or maybe its just fluff.
 
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No. Now you're really reaching out with the hate Tom.

He's gone, get the fuck over it already.

well...you know I hated the signing from day one. He was never going to be worth what they gave him. All he did was prove me right with his under performance and shitty attitude.
 
Very few 1B's were ever signed because of their defense.

And you picked a very limited set of stats, not to mention you didn't even think to limit it to true first basemen. I'm assuming you are using ESPN...which has no fielding qualifiers for positions, has 2 for TOR in the top 10 one of which played 79 games at 1B, and the other 76. Joe Mauer is 6th on the OPS list and he played 8 fukin' games at 1B in 2013...whooopeeee

So I stand by what I said, Prince is a top 10 1B. Up with guys like Davis, and Votto, and Goldschmidt.


Nice try though.

you say top 10 like its a good thing lol. For a guy that talks so much about salary and overspending youd think youd want top 3 production for a guy that gets paid top 1 money. IFFFF salary is a concern....and you get a chance to move the guy that costs you a ton and doesn't perform....then you do it. Iffffffff defense and speed were a concern on your team......then you get rid of the overpaid piece of fat that has no speed and cant play defense. Its a miracle we got rid of that contract...its been proven that if miggy goes down....princess wasn't going to be the guy to step up.
 
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50-50 Hughes.

Fielder had an outstanding year in 2012, and a below average one in 2013, why is it only 2013 counts in people's minds?

Also, everyone is in agreement the contract was too much, but you can't blame Fielder for that...if Boras and Illitch agreed on it, why would Prince object? If your boss offered you a $10,000 dollar a year raise whether or not you deserved it, you would take it too.
 
50-50 Hughes.

Fielder had an outstanding year in 2012, and a below average one in 2013, why is it only 2013 counts in people's minds?

Also, everyone is in agreement the contract was too much, but you can't blame Fielder for that...if Boras and Illitch agreed on it, why would Prince object? If your boss offered you a $10,000 dollar a year raise whether or not you deserved it, you would take it too.

no one blames him for taking it.....we blame him for not even being worth half of it.
 
the other part of this is the attitude.....some teammate bangs your wife. You team has your back and gets rid of the guy that bangs your wife. So instead of showing how much you appreciate the team for having your back....you act like a sorry fat vagina.
 
50-50 Hughes.

Fielder had an outstanding year in 2012, and a below average one in 2013, why is it only 2013 counts in people's minds?

Also, everyone is in agreement the contract was too much, but you can't blame Fielder for that...if Boras and Illitch agreed on it, why would Prince object? If your boss offered you a $10,000 dollar a year raise whether or not you deserved it, you would take it too.

Al Kaline wouldn't.
 
the other part of this is the attitude.....some teammate bangs your wife. You team has your back and gets rid of the guy that bangs your wife. So instead of showing how much you appreciate the team for having your back....you act like a sorry fat vagina.

I'm interested in how you displayed your steely resolve when you experienced identical or even similar circumstances.

It's not that Fielder is gone. It's who arrived in return.
 
Al Kaline wouldn't.

Yeah, Al thought that he was not worth a "mere" 100 Gs.

Wonder if Kaline would have still turned it down had he known back then, what he knows now? Even the greenest, rawest rookie makes almost a cool half-million for a season in MLB.
 
I just think that Prince is still in the middle of a nasty divorce that has emotionally devastated him, he likely vowed to never put his two kids through what he himself experienced with his mother and father's ugly breakup, but obviously couldn't have foreseen his wife being the alleged cheater. He filed for divorce, not Chantal. So he may consider himself a failure in keeping his marriage intact. That isn't something that most people in the same situation will easily get over in the span of only a year's time. His divorce involves an extremely large amount of money, along with children, so it is likely that it might take quite a while before it is finalized. .

It seems more unlikely that he will be mentally, much less physically prepared to begin ST, although now that he will be on the roster of a new team, he might be more motivated to at least try to get into better physical shape, than he might have, had he remained a Tiger. He knows that we have already seen him embarrasingly pratfall in the postseason, and regress offensively and defensively from '12. He must have been aware that many Tigers fans had turned on him, but given his comments that obviously mattered little to him, So I figure that had he remained a Tiger, Fielder would have come into ST, with the same apathetic attitude and diffident demeanor that he had when the postseason ended.
 
The Tigers were not exactly holding a lot of cards here when it came to dealing Fielder. It seems like it was a high priority that Dombrowski trade Prince this offseason due to all the personal issues going on in the clubhouse, let alone the financial obligations/underwhelming performance from Fielder himself. There were probably only a handful of teams who could realistically take him off our hands anyway, and those teams knew that DD was looking to move him. It's reasonable to say that we weren't going to get a very even value trade because of those two factors and Dombrowski's hands were kind of tied on this one. Remember Dave didn't even want Fielder in the first place it was Illitch's call. We have no idea what sort of conversations DD had with other GMs throughout Fielder's time here, trying to find a trade option. This very well could have been the best offer he could get, and even if it's a little underwhelming on the return, I'm not gonna bitch and moan about it. Like others have said throughout the thread, there are other positives about the deal than just Kinsler's on field production he gives the Tigers.
 
Yeah, Al thought that he was not worth a "mere" 100 Gs.

Wonder if Kaline would have still turned it down had he known back then, what he knows now? Even the greenest, rawest rookie makes almost a cool half-million for a season in MLB.

It wasn't a mere 100 grand back then.
 
The Tigers were not exactly holding a lot of cards here when it came to dealing Fielder. It seems like it was a high priority that Dombrowski trade Prince this offseason due to all the personal issues going on in the clubhouse, let alone the financial obligations/underwhelming performance from Fielder himself. There were probably only a handful of teams who could realistically take him off our hands anyway, and those teams knew that DD was looking to move him. It's reasonable to say that we weren't going to get a very even value trade because of those two factors and Dombrowski's hands were kind of tied on this one. Remember Dave didn't even want Fielder in the first place it was Illitch's call. We have no idea what sort of conversations DD had with other GMs throughout Fielder's time here, trying to find a trade option. This very well could have been the best offer he could get, and even if it's a little underwhelming on the return, I'm not gonna bitch and moan about it. Like others have said throughout the thread, there are other positives about the deal than just Kinsler's on field production he gives the Tigers.

I agree and perhaps time was of the essence since there very probably were only a few teams that DD could realistically have a chance with of dealing Fielder. We fans will never know most or especially all of the reasons behind why Prince was dealt to begin with, but for many of us, what we did know was enough. If you just look at the trade from the perspective of the players involved, it look like TX got the best of it in the short term, but not having Prince on the roster when he would be in the last 3-4 years of his contract, makes it look better on the long term, especially if player salaries continue to escalate.. I don't expect player salaries to plateau as long as there is no salary cap, but perhaps the days of players in their prime being given long-term deals of 6 years or more may become more limited if not ended. What the Tigers brass does or doesn't do during the remainder of the off-season to finish constructing the team will undoubtedly have an effect on how good or bad this trade will turn out to be for next season.
 
The Tigers were not exactly holding a lot of cards here when it came to dealing Fielder. It seems like it was a high priority that Dombrowski trade Prince this offseason due to all the personal issues going on in the clubhouse, let alone the financial obligations/underwhelming performance from Fielder himself. There were probably only a handful of teams who could realistically take him off our hands anyway, and those teams knew that DD was looking to move him. It's reasonable to say that we weren't going to get a very even value trade because of those two factors and Dombrowski's hands were kind of tied on this one. Remember Dave didn't even want Fielder in the first place it was Illitch's call. We have no idea what sort of conversations DD had with other GMs throughout Fielder's time here, trying to find a trade option. This very well could have been the best offer he could get, and even if it's a little underwhelming on the return, I'm not gonna bitch and moan about it. Like others have said throughout the thread, there are other positives about the deal than just Kinsler's on field production he gives the Tigers.



Where did you get this idea? I don't think I have ever read that DD "did not want" Fielder. I think you're mistaking the fact that Illitch wanted him and made sure the deal went through, for Dombrowski now wanting anything to do with him.

By your logic DD didnt want Cabrera either, someone else Illitch told him to pursue.
 
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