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[SouthOfMackinac]

I was absolutely stunned about 30 seconds ago to find out that Jennings was top 10 in assists last year. If they can get him to stop jacking up 30 shots a game and become a true facilitator, it could work out.

It makes me want to scream. The guy could be a top 5 PG if he just focused on getting other guys their shot. He would get more space if the D was even more worried about him passing.

 

[everyoneneedsasmil]

It makes me want to scream. The guy could be a top 5 PG if he just focused on getting other guys their shot. He would get more space if the D was even more worried about him passing.

Jennings problems are more than just between the ears. It's not like he can just stop shooting, pass all the time, and become a star. Players that can't score don't get defended at all. Jennings is walking a fine line between jacking shots to keep defenses honest, and being so bad at scoring that teams probably shouldn't be guarding that closely anyway. That's the real issue in Jennings game.

If Jennings were a more efficient scorer, he wouldn't be open all the time and would have more opportunities to make passes. Because he can't finish at the rim and is generally a poor shooter, defenses fade off him all the time. He takes a lot of dumb shots, sure, but he also take a lot of shots that the defense is actively conceding. Jennings just doesn't have all that many high end skills. I know we want him to be great, but there should be more honest conversation about what he can actually be better at to begin with.

Jennings is small, not very strong, and not very long. He's a terrible defender, has been even under good defensive coaches. He's not a great shooter. He's not an effective slasher to score. What Jennings actually does well is pass and take care of the ball. When Jennings had that huge start to his career, people presumed he had a ton of scoring talent. His career to date has shown that the scoring talent was really just a fluke.

 

[dubbsco]

The guy is a damn good passer, I hope SVG can figure out how to harness his strengths and tell him not to shoot 900 times a game. Same with Josh Smith. He should wear one of those electric dog collars and he'll get shocked every time he steps past the arch.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

Jennings problems are more than just between the ears. It's not like he can just stop shooting, pass all the time, and become a star. Players that can't score don't get defended at all. Jennings is walking a fine line between jacking shots to keep defenses honest, and being so bad at scoring that teams probably shouldn't be guarding that closely anyway. That's the real issue in Jennings game.

If Jennings were a more efficient scorer, he wouldn't be open all the time and would have more opportunities to make passes. Because he can't finish at the rim and is generally a poor shooter, defenses fade off him all the time. He takes a lot of dumb shots, sure, but he also take a lot of shots that the defense is actively conceding. Jennings just doesn't have all that many high end skills. I know we want him to be great, but there should be more honest conversation about what he can actually be better at to begin with.

Jennings is small, not very strong, and not very long. He's a terrible defender, has been even under good defensive coaches. He's not a great shooter. He's not an effective slasher to score. What Jennings actually does well is pass and take care of the ball. When Jennings had that huge start to his career, people presumed he had a ton of scoring talent. His career to date has shown that the scoring talent was really just a fluke.

I think he believes he has scoring talent still. Go to the rim and get to the line when you're calling your own number I would say for him. A few jumpers and call it a night. 14 shots a game is too many in my opinion. Rajon Rondo is the guy I would try to be like if I was Jennings - he averages 10 shots a game. Tony Parker averages 15 as does Chris Paul. He isn't either of those guys.

 

[everyoneneedsasmil]

Here's the thing, though, South. How good is Rajon Rondo if he's a terrible defender? Now you're looking at a pass-first PG who can't score or defend. Those guys are lucky to stick on a team's bench, much less as a starter or star.

I'm not saying Jennings should continue taking shots. He shouldn't. What I'm saying is that any evaluation that says he can be much better by just changing his habits misses the point. If Jennings wasn't a volume shooter (shot creation has some value at least), he wouldn't be any better. A player like Brandon Jennings who doesn't take open shots is a player that has no business on the court. Who is Jennings getting open shots for when defenses don't respect him enough to help off their man?

Jennings, for all our talk and all his hype to date, just isn't as talented as we may want to believe. Talented players improve over time, or are so good that they can subsist at an early plateau. Jennings really just hasn't shown anything in his career to say he can definitely be better than he is for any large sample.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

Here's the thing, though, South. How good is Rajon Rondo if he's a terrible defender? Now you're looking at a pass-first PG who can't score or defend. Those guys are lucky to stick on a team's bench, much less as a starter or star.

I'm not saying Jennings should continue taking shots. He shouldn't. What I'm saying is that any evaluation that says he can be much better by just changing his habits misses the point. If Jennings wasn't a volume shooter (shot creation has some value at least), he wouldn't be any better. A player like Brandon Jennings who doesn't take open shots is a player that has no business on the court. Who is Jennings getting open shots for when defenses don't respect him enough to help off their man?

Jennings, for all our talk and all his hype to date, just isn't as talented as we may want to believe. Talented players improve over time, or are so good that they can subsist at an early plateau. Jennings really just hasn't shown anything in his career to say he can definitely be better than he is for any large sample.

His APG shows that he can facilitate and help create. I think last season was lack of a plan. In the absence of a plan dudes were just jacking it up. He likely doesn't have the skills but I think SVG can make him better than he was by giving him a structure that fits the pieces.

 

[everyoneneedsasmil]

His APG shows that he can facilitate and help create. I think last season was lack of a plan. In the absence of a plan dudes were just jacking it up. He likely doesn't have the skills but I think SVG can make him better than he was by giving him a structure that fits the pieces.

That's true. I think most everyone on the Pistons would benefit from real structure on both ends of the court. I just don't expect players with middling careers to suddenly become great. I will be very happy if Jennings becomes a 10 APG and 10 PPG player, but that's not a star.

We should be significantly improved next year, I just don't want to jump the gun on how much improvement is reasonable. The true best case scenario for all our players isn't 5 all-stars, it's still just 3 high end bigs and role players on the perimeter.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

That's true. I think most everyone on the Pistons would benefit from real structure on both ends of the court. I just don't expect players with middling careers to suddenly become great. I will be very happy if Jennings becomes a 10 APG and 10 PPG player, but that's not a star.

We should be significantly improved next year, I just don't want to jump the gun on how much improvement is reasonable. The true best case scenario for all our players isn't 5 all-stars, it's still just 3 high end bigs and role players on the perimeter.

It happens in the NBA often. More than any other sport I think. Chauncey is our example. Bounced around and then LB gave him purpose in life (paraphrasing Billups' own comments from the time).

I think 10 and 10 is a star. Not a superstar but an All-Star for what he will represent to the team and basketball in general. Many All-Stars are that because they know and play their defined role. The Pistons haven't had defined roles or at least the skill set to obtain their stated objectives. SVG has crafted a roster that has the pieces to execute his strategy.

It seemed to me that Dumars would look at who was available and how much they cost and signed them. After that he would let the coach figure out how to use them.

To me it all starts with the point guard. Successful teams have guys who understand they need to facilitate and not try to be a two guard.

 

[everyoneneedsasmil]

It happens in the NBA often. More than any other sport I think. Chauncey is our example. Bounced around and then LB gave him purpose in life (paraphrasing Billups' own comments from the time).

I think 10 and 10 is a star. Not a superstar but an All-Star for what he will represent to the team and basketball in general. Many All-Stars are that because they know and play their defined role. The Pistons haven't had defined roles or at least the skill set to obtain their stated objectives. SVG has crafted a roster that has the pieces to execute his strategy.

It seemed to me that Dumars would look at who was available and how much they cost and signed them. After that he would let the coach figure out how to use them.

To me it all starts with the point guard. Successful teams have guys who understand they need to facilitate and not try to be a two guard.

I actually disagree that it happens all that often. Players that seem to suddenly become stars almost always do so because they suddenly get a ton of minutes or touches. In the vast majority of cases, they were just as good already, they just played smaller roles. Chauncey actually isn't a very good example of your case. He had been steadily developing his whole career, and had near all-star metrics before we signed him. His contract value was hurt by getting traded a number of times, and that was generally before advanced stats started becoming popular. If a similar Chauncey situation happened in 2014, teams would have been throwing more than Jennings money at him.

I also disagree that 10 and 10 is a star. 10 and 10 is Ricky Rubio territory. Except, and again this is big, that's with terrible defense instead of Rondo/Rubio all-nba level defense. All Stars are NOT just role players that do their minimal jobs really well. If that was true, we would see Danny Green in the ASG. All Stars are players that have significant impact and responsibility on their respective teams. A 10 and 10 Jennings doesn't really fit that bill. A 10 and 10 Jennings tells me we can't trust Jennings to make shots and tell him to pass at every opportunity. That might be his best case for the team, but it's an indictment of his overall game.

I also disagree with your statement about basketball starting with the PG. It only starts with your PG if your PG is good. Otherwise, it starts with whomever is your best player. San Antonio, OKC, Miami, and Indiana were the top two teams in both conferences. None of those teams had pass-first PGs. San Antonio and OKC had scorers at point, flat out. Indiana 's PG situation was a mess. Miami you could say Lebron was their PG, but even if you say that you have to acquiesce that he was a big time scorer first and foremost. The first high end team that really started with their PG was LA (Clippers) and that's just because they happened to have the best PG in the game. How many playoff teams at all were able to get away with a PG that was exclusively a passer? Answer: only the teams that didn't actually rely on their PGs for anything.

Edit: I don't want to come off as a jerk or pushy here. I just don't see evidence that suggests your points. I'm willing to change my mind if something comes up.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

It's all good. Would be boring if you just said "Yeah totally". Not out to change your mind but I'll go a little deeper why I feel as such.

You're right. It doesn't happen "often". Underdogs need it to happen to be viable was probably a better way to say it. Chauncey was labeled a tweener but embraced a role under LB. Those were his words on how he took the next step. He was trending better than Jennings as a scorer to be sure. I'm not saying they are the same player but Jennings could surprise advanced metric people with a more sisciplined shot selection and continue to progress on passing.

I'm old school. If you don't have a complete game focus on doing what you do best. Rodman, Ben Wallace and even Richard Hamilton ascended to elite status because of one or two abilities and a ton of tenacity. I'm not talking franchise players but certainly "stars" which we likely define differently.

Point guards. Tony Parker is awesome in my book. Doesn't get the credit he deserves. PG doesn't have to be best player on team but needs to have a clue about executing his team's offensive scheme. So many don't appear to. Mario Chalmers was very good in the 2013 playoffs and Lebron and Wade split those duties. Rajon Rondo got his recognition during their run. I grew up in a PG era and assists are my favorite stat.

 

[dtroitlionsfan951]

Chauncey billups struggled with his shooting % for a while. Didn't hit 40% until year 4. It happens sometimes.

 

[everyoneneedsasmil]

Chauncey billups struggled with his shooting % for a while. Didn't hit 40% until year 4. It happens sometimes.

Pretty huge difference there. Chauncey shot a low FG% partly because he took a ton of shots from 3 (where he was elite, but elite is still around 40%). Also, Chauncey drew tons of fouls and was an ace from the FT line. Chauncey's FG% significantly undersold his scoring value.

Jennings is neither an elite shooter nor foul-drawer. His FG% is a very accurate representation of his scoring prowess because of that. This is why I'm suspicious that a change in shot allocation will appreciably improve Jennings' game. He's not a good scorer from anywhere, so there's no ideal shot distribution for him to be effective.

 

[dubbsco]

Interesting clip on 105.1 from Adrian Wojinacki (or however the hell you spell it).

Apparently Monroe is not interested at all in coming back, and the Pistons have been trying to help him with sign-and-trades with other teams, but no one has been interested " "

 

[everyoneneedsasmil]

Interesting clip on 105.1 from Adrian Wojinacki (or however the hell you spell it).

Apparently Monroe is not interested at all in coming back, and the Pistons have been trying to help him with sign-and-trades with other teams, but no one has been interested " "

Man, that would suck for everybody if true. I can see why Monroe wouldn't want to stick around if Smith isn't traded, but the team isn't going to sit around and trade him just to get rid of him. I still think a double S&T, Monroe for Bledsoe, makes the most sense.

I would bet money it's not that no one is interested in Monroe, it's that no one is yet interested in his contract or trade demands. There were already teams linked to Monroe before ready to give him a contract, but who didn't want to give up extra assets in a trade. The fact is, not a lot of teams have a big enough need at C/PF plus valuable depth on the wings to trade. One other possibility I could see is moving Monroe to Milwaukee for Giannis. Milwaukee can pretend all they want, but Giannis and Parker play the same position, and Parker is likely going to be a lot better than Giannis. Monroe actually fits next to a rim protector like Sanders.

 

[dubbsco]

He's the one reporter that is usually spot on with his reports. It's just been way too quiet for me to think otherwise. I'm worried that if Monroe stays, we are going to get a mopey, doesn't want to be here attitude. All the speculation has said that he can't stand Josh Smith, and it was either him or me type thing.

 

[mhughes0021]

trade smith and Monroe for wiggins....championship!

 

[everyoneneedsasmil]

He's the one reporter that is usually spot on with his reports. It's just been way too quiet for me to think otherwise. I'm worried that if Monroe stays, we are going to get a mopey, doesn't want to be here attitude. All the speculation has said that he can't stand Josh Smith, and it was either him or me type thing.

I'm a little surprised that he's so adamant, unless SVG has let slip that Monroe will be the one coming off the bench. Monroe played plenty last year with Smith on the wing. Smith probably doesn't care as much because he plays the same game no matter what positional label he gets. Monroe obviously hurts more with a packed lane since he's not a transition threat like Smith, but that's also as much about his limited skillset.

The only thing I can really think is that Monroe feels he could be one of the best players on a championship team and is just sick of losing. Maybe it's not about Smith at all, maybe he's just spent 4 years with one of the most dysfunctional, poorly constructed teams in the league, and wants to get out. I wouldn't even blame him if that's the case, but obviously he needs to figure out his priorities. If his contract demands go down, he'll be a heck of a lot easier to trade. If he absolutely thinks he deserves the max and won't take anything less, then he better be prepared to play out at least one more year with Detroit.

 

[dubbsco]

I'm split on Monroe as a player. You can't teach guys that are his size and are strong around the rim. On the other hand, he does basically nothing to stretch defenses, and that is very important in today's NBA. He's about as un-athletic as they come, and his ability to get up and down the court is poor.

He thinks he's worth more than he actually is, so teams probably can't play ball with his demands. I wouldn't mind him coming back to Detroit for a reasonable price, but he's not worth the max.

 

[everyoneneedsasmil]

I'm split on Monroe as a player. You can't teach guys that are his size and are strong around the rim. On the other hand, he does basically nothing to stretch defenses, and that is very important in today's NBA. He's about as un-athletic as they come, and his ability to get up and down the court is poor.

He thinks he's worth more than he actually is, so teams probably can't play ball with his demands. I wouldn't mind him coming back to Detroit for a reasonable price, but he's not worth the max.

An issue right now is that getting locked into the max today might mean a lot less in a few years. 25% of the cap in 2014, even with 7.5% raises, could be less than 25% of the cap in 2016 and 2017. Monroe is a very good player, and he's right to point out that lesser players (Gordon, Parsons) got the max. We can argue about the extenuating circumstances around those deals, but those won't be things his agent cares about.

There was a Grantland article today that seemed to touch on him a bit. As basically a young Al Jefferson, it's difficult to build a team around Monroe (which is what a team would be saying by giving him the max). That's not to say such a team can't be built, or can't be good. It can. But it's harder and requires teams to go against the current trends. You need a really good coach to play offense with two non-shooters up front. It requires a lot more motion on offense, players knowing where to be and where to go without the ball. Monroe-Drummond is similarly talented to Griffin-Jordan or Randolph-Gasol, both part of very good teams. But also teams with good coaches and systems, with more experienced players.

I would actually prefer to keep Monroe around for at least next year just to see what SVG can do with the team.

 

[tomdalton22]

An issue right now is that getting locked into the max today might mean a lot less in a few years. 25% of the cap in 2014, even with 7.5% raises, could be less than 25% of the cap in 2016 and 2017. Monroe is a very good player, and he's right to point out that lesser players (Gordon, Parsons) got the max. We can argue about the extenuating circumstances around those deals, but those won't be things his agent cares about.

There was a Grantland article today that seemed to touch on him a bit. As basically a young Al Jefferson, it's difficult to build a team around Monroe (which is what a team would be saying by giving him the max). That's not to say such a team can't be built, or can't be good. It can. But it's harder and requires teams to go against the current trends. You need a really good coach to play offense with two non-shooters up front. It requires a lot more motion on offense, players knowing where to be and where to go without the ball. Monroe-Drummond is similarly talented to Griffin-Jordan or Randolph-Gasol, both part of very good teams. But also teams with good coaches and systems, with more experienced players.

I would actually prefer to keep Monroe around for at least next year just to see what SVG can do with the team.

the absolute lack of interest from other teams is all you need to know about what the league thinks of Monroe. Let him play this year and see what happens but do NOT give him a max contract!