Game 12: Lions @ Bears Thread

[sggatecl]

My post wasn't an optimistic post about the Lions chances, I was pointing out that the odds are slim to none given the number of teams basically competing for one spot.

The Lions are probably going to win 2 more games and fuck up their chances of picking in the top 10

Saw a stat last night that as a head coach Mike Tomlin has never finished worse than 8-8. And the Steelers still draft better consistently.

 

[tomdalton22]

Saw a stat last night that as a head coach Mike Tomlin has never finished worse than 8-8. And the Steelers still draft better consistently.

playoff wins over the past 28 years

Steelers 20
Lions 0

record over the past decade
Steelers 102-57-1
Lions 72-87-1

record with current starting QB as starter
Steelers 155-72-1
Lions 74-86-1

 

[LKP]

playoff wins over the past 28 years

Steelers 20
Lions 0

record over the past decade
Steelers 102-57-1
Lions 72-87-1

record with current starting QB as starter
Steelers 155-72-1
Lions 74-86-1

Big Ben and other QBS get defensive and run game support. Interesting Big Ben usually in mid 90s QB rating. only twice over 100 in his career. Also Steelers .500 without Big Ben last year, Lions 0-8 without Stafford last year.

Is there a Steelers guy we could steal? And does stealing work? Patriots stealing seemed like a good idea.

 

[503]

Big Ben and other QBS get defensive and run game support. Interesting Big Ben usually in mid 90s QB rating. only twice over 100 in his career. Also Steelers .500 without Big Ben last year, Lions 0-8 without Stafford last year.

Is there a Steelers guy we could steal? And does stealing work? Patriots stealing seemed like a good idea.

Their is one guy...Terryl Austin

 

[LKP]

Their is one guy...Terryl Austin

As head coach, bold move cotton. Big switch in scheme though. I like 4-3 defenses though.

21st, 13th, 23rd and 3rd in PPG defense from 2017 back to 2014. Feel like Saleh would be much much better

25th, 28th, 8th and 13th for the 49ers since 2017 under Saleh

 

[byco42]

Big Ben and other QBS get defensive and run game support. Interesting Big Ben usually in mid 90s QB rating. only twice over 100 in his career. Also Steelers .500 without Big Ben last year, Lions 0-8 without Stafford last year.

Is there a Steelers guy we could steal? And does stealing work? Patriots stealing seemed like a good idea.

The core of the franchise is fetid. It will never matter who the coach is. He will inherit the stink and he will never shed it.

Patricia is next on the list of Lions' head coaches who will never again be an NFL head coach. Who in their right mind wants to be the guy AFTER him, doomed to a one-and-over with destiny?

 

[tomdalton22]

Big Ben and other QBS get defensive and run game support. Interesting Big Ben usually in mid 90s QB rating. only twice over 100 in his career. Also Steelers .500 without Big Ben last year, Lions 0-8 without Stafford last year.
.

this is true and shows just how shitty the Lions players and front offices have been over the past 15 years. A fact that you seem to have been disputing.

 

[boogerlovejoy]

The core of the franchise is fetid. It will never matter who the coach is. He will inherit the stink and he will never shed it.

Patricia is next on the list of Lions' head coaches who will never again be an NFL head coach. Who in their right mind wants to be the guy AFTER him, doomed to a one-and-over with destiny?

Someone needs to talk you off the ledge. Were you not hugged enough as a child?

 

[LKP]

this is true and shows just how shitty the Lions players and front offices have been over the past 15 years. A fact that you seem to have been disputing.

2005-2009 a mess. 2010 still part of rebuild and Stafford hurt all year. I never ever argued they were good in those years.

There are years there was support. 2011, 2014, 2016. Playoff years. 2019 a lost year with Stafford injury too but no support

So boils down to 2012 (bad defense, weapon injuries/caused turnovers), 2013(average defense, some run game, but weapon caused turnovers and injuries), 2015, 2017 (close and winning record), 2018 and now 2020.

2012 4-4 then fell apart with turnovers (special teams cost them 2 games gave up like 2 returns a game in two games), injuries to all weapons and couldn't get it done on defense in 4th Quarter

2013 same as 2012 but 7-9 with 6-3 start. Weapon injuries and weapon caused turnovers galore. Failed down the stretch and dumped Schwartz. Semblance of run game with Bus/Bell though
And those 2 years were before Caldwell really fixed Staffords mechanics too

2015 terrible first half, (coaching OC Lombardi and Oline), 6-2 second half when change made

2017 9-7. Razor close to playoffs. 10 second run off game basically cost them. Stafford did well despite lack of support.

2018 Cooter got predictable, defense actually 13th in PPG. But Patricia making changes.

2020 defense is atrocious, run game without Swift atrocious, KG hurt 7 games, defense some big injuries at Dline/CB too most of year. 5-7 and see how they finish under Bevell

Some coaching (Lombardi mess (2015) and predictable Cooter 2018, Patricia defenses 2018-2020), some weapon caused turnovers (2012/2013), some major injuries to most important players or just a plethora in same spot (weapons 2012/2013), some just a slight lack of execution(2017), some Stafford injury (2019)

TLDR: Issue was coaching and massive injuries

 

[tomdalton22]

2005-2009 a mess. 2010 still part of rebuild and Stafford hurt all year. I never ever argued they were good in those years.

There are years there was support. 2011, 2014, 2016. Playoff years. 2019 a lost year with Stafford injury too but no support

So boils down to 2012 (bad defense, weapon injuries/caused turnovers), 2013(average defense, some run game, but weapon caused turnovers and injuries), 2015, 2017 (close and winning record), 2018 and now 2020.

2012 4-4 then fell apart with turnovers (special teams cost them 2 games gave up like 2 returns a game in two games), injuries to all weapons and couldn't get it done on defense in 4th Quarter

2013 same as 2012 but 7-9 with 6-3 start. Weapon injuries and weapon caused turnovers galore. Failed down the stretch and dumped Schwartz. Semblance of run game with Bus/Bell though
And those 2 years were before Caldwell really fixed Staffords mechanics too

2015 terrible first half, (coaching OC Lombardi and Oline), 6-2 second half when change made

2017 9-7. Razor close to playoffs. 10 second run off game basically cost them. Stafford did well despite lack of support.

2018 Cooter got predictable, defense actually 13th in PPG. But Patricia making changes.

2020 defense is atrocious, run game without Swift atrocious, KG hurt 7 games, defense some big injuries at Dline/CB too most of year. 5-7 and see how they finish under Bevell

Some coaching (Lombardi mess (2015) and predictable Cooter 2018, Patricia defenses 2018-2020), some weapon caused turnovers (2012/2013), some major injuries to most important players or just a plethora in same spot (weapons 2012/2013), some just a slight lack of execution(2017), some Stafford injury (2019)

TLDR: Issue was coaching and massive injuries

like I said...front office and shitty players. The coaching is on the front office, the lack of quality players is also on the front office.

All of the problems that you mentioned could be overcome with good coaching and a good front office that creates a team with quality players and quality depth. Something that the Lions organization has not had in the past 15+ years.

 

[LKP]

like I said...front office and shitty players. The coaching is on the front office, the lack of quality players is also on the front office.

All of the problems that you mentioned could be overcome with good coaching and a good front office that creates a team with quality players and quality depth. Something that the Lions organization has not had in the past 15+ years.

I'm saying it wasn't the players really and both GMs did a solid job in Mayhew/Quinn. More coaching and major injuries some years. Like is 2015 very different with Lombardi gone and other Oline coach. Also it's razor thin. 7-9 2015. Chargers huge comeback after huge lead Week 1, Calvin fumble on goal line/batted ball Seattle game, hail mary with guys defending side lines after a bogus face mask, Rams fluke pick 6. Becomes 10-6 or 11-5 real quick after an 11-5 2014 season

And other years they did win a good amount with varying support for Stafford. Sometimes Stafford carried them too.

 

[boogerlovejoy]

this is true and shows just how shitty the Lions players and front offices have been over the past 15 years. A fact that you seem to have been disputing.

There simply is no disputing the futility of this franchise. GM's. Coaches. Coordinators. VERY few successes in there and a LOT of really bad hires.

Chuck Schmidt was ok. Millen is the worst GM in the history of football....and maybe ALL sports. Mayhew was average, Quinn was pathetic.

Fontes was ok, Bobby Ross was also ok, Mornhinwhig was terrible, Mariucci was awful, Marinelli was pathetic, Schwartz was in over his head, Caldwell was solid, Fatty was terrible.

Thats about 30 years of football. Our best GM was Mayhew. Our best coach was Fontes.

That's bad. Really bad. Because both those guys were average at their job. We've had superstars roll in and out.....but have never had a good team. Think about that. This franchise hasn't had a good team in over 60 years. We've had 2 teams that had good years. 1991 and 2014. But those weren't good teams. If they were, they would have had long term success.

The '91 team was 13-19 the two years before and 15-17 the two years after. The 2014 team was 11-21 the two years before and 16-16 the two years after.

It's frustrating.

 

[tomdalton22]

I'm saying it wasn't the players really and both GMs did a solid job in Mayhew/Quinn. More coaching and major injuries some years. Like is 2015 very different with Lombardi gone and other Oline coach. Also it's razor thin. 7-9 2015. Chargers huge comeback after huge lead Week 1, Calvin fumble on goal line/batted ball Seattle game, hail mary with guys defending side lines after a bogus face mask, Rams fluke pick 6. Becomes 10-6 or 11-5 real quick after an 11-5 2014 season

And other years they did win a good amount with varying support for Stafford. Sometimes Stafford carried them too.

no, the GMs didn't do a good job. They chose the bad coaches and didn't put a team together that could still be competitive with injuries. I will give you the Stafford injury...most teams can't survive losing their starting QB...but that team was probably going to be at or below .500 with Matt (see 2018 & 2020)

I was watching the Bills vs. 49ers last night. The 49ers have the same record as the Lions and they have lost a lot more quality players than the Lions have in any year since Stafford has been there. They have been without their starting QB, their all pro TE (who is better than any player on the Lions); their 3 best defensive lineman including Bosa who is better than any player on the Lions D.

 

[boogerlovejoy]

no, the GMs didn't do a good job. They chose the bad coaches and didn't put a team together that could still be competitive with injuries. I will give you the Stafford injury...most teams can't survive losing their starting QB...but that team was probably going to be at or below .500 with Matt (see 2018 & 2020)

I was watching the Bills vs. 49ers last night. The 49ers have the same record as the Lions and they have lost a lot more quality players than the Lions have in any year since Stafford has been there. They have been without their starting QB, their all pro TE (who is better than any player on the Lions); their 3 best defensive lineman including Bosa who is better than any player on the Lions D.

I watched almost all of the game last night. What I liked...

1. SF played their asses off.
2. They played physical football.
3. If given the chance, I would sign Mullens in a heartbeat. He is, at worst, the best backup QB in the NFL in my opinion. If we move on from Stafford....I would want Mullens or Fitzpatrick as my short term guy. Neither are superstars, both are solid QB's who give you a chance to win a football game. If they do draft a Trask or Trey Lance (please dont) those are two guys who still allow your offense to be solid/good.
4. Saleh has gotten his defense better every year. When he started in 2017 they had little talent.....got better in 2018.....were REALLY good last year when they added Bosa and were relatively healthy.....and even with MASSIVE injuries this year....they are still 6th in yardage given up.

 

[tomdalton22]

I watched almost all of the game last night. What I liked...

1. SF played their asses off.
2. They played physical football.
3. If given the chance, I would sign Mullens in a heartbeat. He is, at worst, the best backup QB in the NFL in my opinion. If we move on from Stafford....I would want Mullens or Fitzpatrick as my short term guy. Neither are superstars, both are solid QB's who give you a chance to win a football game. If they do draft a Trask or Trey Lance (please dont) those are two guys who still allow your offense to be solid/good.
4. Saleh has gotten his defense better every year. When he started in 2017 they had little talent.....got better in 2018.....were REALLY good last year when they added Bosa and were relatively healthy.....and even with MASSIVE injuries this year....they are still 6th in yardage given up.

I agree. It seems like they have an identity that is on both sides of the ball. The announcers were talking about how Debow Samuel and the other WRs are "violent" runners with the ball. IMO that comes from the top down. They specifically draft that type of player at almost every position...on defense, OL, and even their offensive skill players.

 

[byco42]

Someone needs to talk you off the ledge.

No, I'm standing on solid grould.

Were you not hugged enough as a child?

Yes.


However, in my lifetime, since I have been following the team, these men have coached the Detroit Lions:

George Wilson, Harry Gilmer, Joe Schmidt, Don McCafferty, Rick Forzano, Tommy Hudspeth, Monte Clark, Darryl Rogers, Wayne Fontes, Gary Moeller, Bobby Ross, Marty Morningweg, Steve Mariucci, Dick Jauron, Rod Marinelli, Jim Schwartz, Jim Caldwell, Matt Patricia, and Darrell Bevell.

Next guy up ain't got a chance.

 

[LKP]

no, the GMs didn't do a good job. They chose the bad coaches and didn't put a team together that could still be competitive with injuries. I will give you the Stafford injury...most teams can't survive losing their starting QB...but that team was probably going to be at or below .500 with Matt (see 2018 & 2020)

I was watching the Bills vs. 49ers last night. The 49ers have the same record as the Lions and they have lost a lot more quality players than the Lions have in any year since Stafford has been there. They have been without their starting QB, their all pro TE (who is better than any player on the Lions); their 3 best defensive lineman including Bosa who is better than any player on the Lions D.

Refs screwed them in 2019 too. Schedule was easier second half. They were competitive with Blough/Driskel in Cowboys, Bears, Washington, Packers games and screwed in first Packers and Chiefs game

GMs picked players well. But the Patricia hire was a good idea (stealing from Pats) but didn't work out because he was too stuck on his scheme getting slower players as a result and not putting them in a position to win (no stunts, low blitzes, little zone). Caldwell 2 years of Mayhew and Quin. Quin kept him after 7-9 and didn't just take Patricia right away. Mayhew was Caldwell and up and coming Schwartz. Schwartz was an unknown up and coming DC. He was basically what Saleh is but nobody knew Schwartz would fail so hard in final 2 seasons. He got an extension prior to 2012! And let's look at OC. Patricia kept Cooter (because they did well in 2017) and then 2018 was a dud predictable play calling year (plus injuries (Marvin/Kerryon), Tate trade and Stafford back injury. It's not cut and dry. There are alot of things to go into every decision and why and then why it suceeds or fails.

And Schwartz and Patricia had their scheme but picked bad DCs. Gunther, Paul P and Undlin. They didn't get creative DCs. And that is on the Coach not GM picking those. Same with Caldwell picking Lombardi and Oline coach Prince. Linehan was a solid OC and Gunther super experienced. Schwartz surrounded himself with experience being a brand new HC. Linehan had some good times but didn't care to fix turnover issues (both QB, weapon caused ints and fumbles by RBs/WRs). Gunther was old school running the 4-3 Wide 9 that Schwartz wanted. That defense has worked before. Austin kept alot of that stuff when he took over too as they stayed 4-3 under Caldwell.

Patricia was the multiple fronts but didnt do any disguised stuff or stunts or disguised zones. He is full on man to man but wanted slower LBs and CBs and box yet "versatile" safeties. And DEs who bull rush to hold contain and don't win with speed. And then he didn't change it up enough so the offenses knew how to beat it and knew they would see it most plays

Patricia never got a Hightower or Gilmore or McCourtys. He got Flowers and Collins and Harmon though and they played well. The adding Patriot players was the success story. And Romeo Okwara this year.

 

[boogerlovejoy]

GMs picked players well.

Please provide examples of this.

 

[LKP]

Please provide examples of this.

Mayhew Dline build in Suh, Fairley and Ansah, Bush (2013), Tulloch, Glover Quin, Reiff somewhat, Golden Tate, Ngata trade, Slay, Warford

Quinn: Decker, Ragnow, Golladay, Hock, Harmon trade, Flowers, Hand, Romeo Okwara, Marvin Jones, Swift, Collins solid but too big a deal, Harrison trade, Girffen trade?

Okudah supposed to be slam dunk but struggling hard. Davis a scheme change in year 2 that doesn't fit him at all

 

[mhughes0021]

It all starts in the draft. Its a teams chance to get cheap talent...and we fail at it over and over and over again for the last 20 years. The examples are endless. let me rephrase....the early round examples are endless. I wont even count the mid - late rounds. When your GMs the last 2 decades suck at drafting you are forced to over pay in FA to get average talent.
Flowers has never excelled at anything...we have to pay the guy top DE money lol.

Nick Williams?? he makes like 1 tackle a game.

Some terrible OT that sucked ass at philly we are paying $10mil a year just to sit on the sideline injured every week.

We have one of highest paid slot corners in the league...and our secondary sucks ass lol.

Bad contract after bad contract and no results.

Thats what happens when you cant draft worth a shit....