Gio Gonzalez and Martin Prado

[buddyboy2121]

Let's start by saying that Gio plays in a pitcher friendly park. Add to that, the AL West has 3 of the 5 top pitcher friendly parks, so even his away stats can be skewed.

And for the record, I think Gio is somewhere between Scherzer and Porcello when it comes to starting. Now, Gio is probably at best a #3. However, Turner has the potential to be a #1, but currently only projecting to be a #2.

Could Turner bomb? Sure. But based on predictive stats from the minors and considering Gio's predictive stats from a pitching friendly envirornment, I would argue they have equal chances of succeeding or failing.

Sorry man Turner's ceiling is a #2 at max.

 

[Thumb]

Let's start by saying that Gio plays in a pitcher friendly park. Add to that, the AL West has 3 of the 5 top pitcher friendly parks, so even his away stats can be skewed.

And for the record, I think Gio is somewhere between Scherzer and Porcello when it comes to starting. Now, Gio is probably at best a #3. However, Turner has the potential to be a #1, but currently only projecting to be a #2.

Could Turner bomb? Sure. But based on predictive stats from the minors and considering Gio's predictive stats from a pitching friendly envirornment, I would argue they have equal chances of succeeding or failing.

Sorry man Turner's ceiling is a #2 at max.

What was Cliff Lee's ceiling?

It's all speculation anyway you look at it.

 

[buddyboy2121]

[quote="Maize&blue21":9v0bogma]Sorry man Turner's ceiling is a #2 at max.

What was Cliff Lee's ceiling?

It's all speculation anyway you look at it.[/quote:9v0bogma]Cliff Lee also had great command just lacked a secondary pitch. He was a top prospect then had issues missing bats until he developed that nasty curve. You can't compare the two they are two completely different pitchers

 

[Thumb]

[quote="MI_Thumb":7iqjwtis]


What was Cliff Lee's ceiling?

It's all speculation anyway you look at it.

Cliff Lee also had great command just lacked a secondary pitch. He was a top prospect then had issues missing bats until he developed that nasty curve. You can't compare the two they are two completely different pitchers[/quote:7iqjwtis]

Just like you can't predict a players ceiling.

 

[jimrice]

I don't think it's an either/or. I'd like to see the Tigers keep some prospects, as some of them pan out. Cheap young talent is key to long term success.

I forget who mentioned it before, but the gist was this if the Tigers really wanted to upgrade, they should have just signed Buehrle rather than trade for Gio.

 

[Thumb]

I don't think it's an either/or. I'd like to see the Tigers keep some prospects, as some of them pan out. Cheap young talent is key to long term success.

I forget who mentioned it before, but the gist was this if the Tigers really wanted to upgrade, they should have just signed Buehrle rather than trade for Gio.

Buehrle was who I wanted.

I thought if the Tiger were serious about trying to win it all next season, we needed Burhrle as a veteran LHP, some bullpen help, and a full time 3b or 2b, dump Inge and Young, re-sign Ramon.

Not much has happened to make me think they are serious about trying to win it all yet.

 

[kingofdetroit57]

Tigers interested in Jurrjens...
http://www.mlive.com/tigers/index.ssf/2011/12/report_detroit_tigers_among_te.html

 

[Mitchrapp]

I don't understand DD. Either sell your farm for good quality players and win a WS or sell your aging talent and go the youth movement.

 

[kalinecountry]

I don't think it's an either/or. I'd like to see the Tigers keep some prospects, as some of them pan out. Cheap young talent is key to long term success.

I forget who mentioned it before, but the gist was this if the Tigers really wanted to upgrade, they should have just signed Buehrle rather than trade for Gio.

Buehrle was who I wanted.

I thought if the Tiger were serious about trying to win it all next season, we needed Burhrle as a veteran LHP, some bullpen help, and a full time 3b or 2b, dump Inge and Young, re-sign Ramon.

Not much has happened to make me think they are serious about trying to win it all yet.

Yeah, Buerhle would have worked on several levels...LHP, fast worker (unlike galarraga and penny), crafty/smart and just a FA with no loss of a draft pick.
I feel that teams like the braves have good scouts that know other teams pitching prospects and the a's are able to get a ransom in prospects for players they won't be able to afford long term. Rather not deal with them.

If they don't improve what looks to be 3rd base from every thing said of the 3rd and 2nd weak platoons as well as getting a good starter it will be a disappointing offseason.
Kind of getting sick of hearing that JV and Cabrera are the only 2 players of that type of salary they can afford. If they really want to win with those two players in their prime years, they have to do more than this. Also sick of hearing the public relations that DD says "the Tigers feel comfortable" with who they have going into next season.
East and West, the Yankees, redsox, tampa rays, blue jays, rangers, angels, those are the teams that are above the rest along with our Tigers.... The question for me is are the Tigers as good, not as good, or better than those teams. I think they are middle of the pack with those teams, and I ask myself "what are the Tigers going to do or think they can do compared to those teams and their moves with Delmon the hack and butcher in LF, and the weak platoons at 2nd and 3rd, and their safety net backup plan that could have holes in it in thinking a prospect can be the 5th starter.

 

[jimrice]

KalineCountry[/color]]
[quote="MI_Thumb":bi2z1ipv]


Buehrle was who I wanted.

I thought if the Tiger were serious about trying to win it all next season, we needed Burhrle as a veteran LHP, some bullpen help, and a full time 3b or 2b, dump Inge and Young, re-sign Ramon.

Not much has happened to make me think they are serious about trying to win it all yet.

Yeah, Buerhle would have worked on several levels...LHP, fast worker (unlike galarraga and penny), crafty/smart and just a FA with no loss of a draft pick.
I feel that teams like the braves have good scouts that know other teams pitching prospects and the a's are able to get a ransom in prospects for players they won't be able to afford long term. Rather not deal with them.

If they don't improve what looks to be 3rd base from every thing said of the 3rd and 2nd weak platoons as well as getting a good starter it will be a disappointing offseason.
Kind of getting sick of hearing that JV and Cabrera are the only 2 players of that type of salary they can afford. If they really want to win with those two players in their prime years, they have to do more than this. Also sick of hearing the public relations that DD says "the Tigers feel comfortable" with who they have going into next season.
East and West, the Yankees, redsox, tampa rays, blue jays, rangers, angels, those are the teams that are above the rest along with our Tigers.... The question for me is are the Tigers as good, not as good, or better than those teams. I think they are middle of the pack with those teams, and I ask myself "what are the Tigers going to do or think they can do compared to those teams and their moves with Delmon the hack and butcher in LF, and the weak platoons at 2nd and 3rd, and their safety net backup plan that could have holes in it in thinking a prospect can be the 5th starter. [/quote:bi2z1ipv]


Pretty much agree. I'd add that Peralta, Avila, Verlander, Valverde, Fister all had career years. I expect Verlander to be a top pitcher, but he may not be quite as good as 2011. Avila and Fister might have "arrived" or they might have just had career years. I 100% expect Peralta and Valverde to be worse, and have typical career numbers.

 

[mhughes0021]

KalineCountry[/color]]

Yeah, Buerhle would have worked on several levels...LHP, fast worker (unlike galarraga and penny), crafty/smart and just a FA with no loss of a draft pick.
I feel that teams like the braves have good scouts that know other teams pitching prospects and the a's are able to get a ransom in prospects for players they won't be able to afford long term. Rather not deal with them.

If they don't improve what looks to be 3rd base from every thing said of the 3rd and 2nd weak platoons as well as getting a good starter it will be a disappointing offseason.
Kind of getting sick of hearing that JV and Cabrera are the only 2 players of that type of salary they can afford. If they really want to win with those two players in their prime years, they have to do more than this. Also sick of hearing the public relations that DD says "the Tigers feel comfortable" with who they have going into next season.
East and West, the Yankees, redsox, tampa rays, blue jays, rangers, angels, those are the teams that are above the rest along with our Tigers.... The question for me is are the Tigers as good, not as good, or better than those teams. I think they are middle of the pack with those teams, and I ask myself "what are the Tigers going to do or think they can do compared to those teams and their moves with Delmon the hack and butcher in LF, and the weak platoons at 2nd and 3rd, and their safety net backup plan that could have holes in it in thinking a prospect can be the 5th starter.

Pretty much agree. I'd add that Peralta, Avila, Verlander, Valverde, Fister all had career years. I expect Verlander to be a top pitcher, but he may not be quite as good as 2011. Avila and Fister might have "arrived" or they might have just had career years. I 100% expect Peralta and Valverde to be worse, and have typical career numbers.

FOr how inconsistent Valverde was i cant believe he didnt blow a save all year lol. Was amazing how many times he dug himself out of a hole.

 

[tycobb420]

Gonzalez to the Nats

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/12/22/report-gio-gonazles-traded-to-the-nats-for-four-top-prospects/related/

 

[mjsb2]

Let's start by saying that Gio plays in a pitcher friendly park. Add to that, the AL West has 3 of the 5 top pitcher friendly parks, so even his away stats can be skewed.

And for the record, I think Gio is somewhere between Scherzer and Porcello when it comes to starting. Now, Gio is probably at best a #3. However, Turner has the potential to be a #1, but currently only projecting to be a #2.

Could Turner bomb? Sure. But based on predictive stats from the minors and considering Gio's predictive stats from a pitching friendly envirornment, I would argue they have equal chances of succeeding or failing.

Sorry man Turner's ceiling is a #2 at max.

Completely wrong.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Seems like a lot and that's with no knowledge of knowing who these prospects are.

 

[kingofdetroit57]

Dumb trade for the Nats. Gio isn't a #1 and they gave up 4 top prospects to get him. As the article says, they kept Harper and Rendon (their #1 and #2), but those guys are probably the two top prospects in any organization, so what the Nats gave up is really about equal to the top 4 prospects in any other organization. Peacock and Milone are really good prosects from everything I've heard on them.

 

[mjsb2]

[quote="MI_Thumb"u9i4pef]


What was Cliff Lee's ceiling?

It's all speculation anyway you look at it.

Cliff Lee also had great command just lacked a secondary pitch. He was a top prospect then had issues missing bats until he developed that nasty curve. You can't compare the two they are two completely different pitchers[/quoteu9i4pef]

Pretty much everybody says Turners ceiling is a #1, but he's more likely to be a #2 than a #1.

The reason he's projected as more of a number 2 right now is because.....














let the suspense build.....









his secondary pitches, mostly his changeup, isn't at the level it would need to be for him to be a #1.

But of course, if it develops into a plus offering, he'll be regarded as a #1 pitcher.

 

[kalinecountry]

I was just over at TigsTown and reading about Turner's changeup. Improved 'dramatically' and he had a feel for it in 2011.
Trusts the grip and maintains good arm speed to add to deception. Outside chance as a plus pitch but is above average for now and probable in the future.
There is alot to like about him, but also the opinion of many here, he needs time to develop at the minor league level.

 

[tycobb420]

Dumb trade for the Nats. Gio isn't a #1 and they gave up 4 top prospects to get him. As the article says, they kept Harper and Rendon (their #1 and #2), but those guys are probably the two top prospects in any organization, so what the Nats gave up is really about equal to the top 4 prospects in any other organization. Peacock and Milone are really good prosects from everything I've heard on them.

Two of the guys they surrendered for Gonz. sound like throw-ins. The other 2 seem like they are top prospects.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Gio's walks in the NL will hurt more than when he was in the AL.

 

[mjsb2]

Mitch[/color]]Gio's walks in the NL will hurt more than when he was in the AL.

Why?

I'd say AL lineups, on average, being stronger than NL lineups would make giving up walks to them more harmful than giving up walks to an inferior lineup. The better lineup is more likely to make you pay for the walk.