I just voted.

[biggunsbob]

Any freaking Job your on your feet for 5,6,7 ,8 hours flipping burgers in fast food or doing practically anything is hard enough.. Some jobs are tougher then others..
Total BS if anyone thinks Different... Try dishwashing at a busy place for 8 hours shift and you will want to jab your eyes out with a pencil. According Spartan Mack they are easy jobs that you can do with no problem.. Total BS.. Any job in the restaurant industry is hard enough.. Is it construction work.. No... But they are no different then any other job.
I guess Fast food are not as tough as Spartanmack...

 

[TheVictors]

I delivered newspapers as an 11yr old in Northern Michigan, 12mos/yr, thru hail, sleet & snow. I washed dishes at a place to the point where I had cramped hands and nightmares. I have cleaned hay lofts and wrestled calfs to the ground. I have cleared fields the size of football fields of every rock 'bigger than a grapefruit'

I respect every worker. In part because I've done a lot of those jobs.

 

[Gulo Blue]

I delivered newspapers as an 11yr old in Northern Michigan, 12mos/yr, thru hail, sleet & snow. I washed dishes at a place to the point where I had cramped hands and nightmares. I have cleaned hay lofts and wrestled calfs to the ground. I have cleared fields the size of football fields of every rock 'bigger than a grapefruit'

I respect every worker. In part because I've done a lot of those jobs.

The kicker (for me) was how 3 years of waking up at 4:30 am to deliver newspapers only covered 1 semester's room & board at Michigan.

 

[TheVictors]

The kicker for me was how I was putting every rock bigger than a grapefruit into a wheelbarrow and dumping full loads into a ravine. And doing so with a degree from MICHIGAN.

I felt like Sbee and knew then, I never wanted to feel that way again, ever.

 

[Thumb]

Am I the only one who got the Caddyshack reference?


*attempted hijacking*

 

[Mitchrapp]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiRGRvE_Wqg

 

[Spartanmack]

Or really?

Are you saying my Big Mac is going to put its special sauce on itself?

no, but they can automate enough of the process that they won't need most of their cashiers and food runners and they could put the special sauce on the customer side of the counter and let you do it - like they did w/ ketchup, mustard, fountain drinks, etc...

 

[Spartanmack]

Any freaking Job your on your feet for 5,6,7 ,8 hours flipping burgers in fast food or doing practically anything is hard enough.. Some jobs are tougher then others..
Total BS if anyone thinks Different... Try dishwashing at a busy place for 8 hours shift and you will want to jab your eyes out with a pencil. According Spartan Mack they are easy jobs that you can do with no problem.. Total BS.. Any job in the restaurant industry is hard enough.. Is it construction work.. No... But they are no different then any other job.
I guess Fast food are not as tough as Spartanmack...

if a job in the restaurant business is not as hard as a job in construction then how can they be "no different than any other job?"

I don't really think any different - my whole point is that some jobs are harder than others. You just seem to be getting upset because I don't think certain low skill restaurant jobs are hard. And I have stood on my feet in a factory 9 hours a day rust-proofing Dodge Omnis and Plymouth Horizons - over 500 of them a day. I had to lift the hood, put the support stick in place then spray the rear door jam, switch nozzles on the gun and spray the rear quarter panel and switch the nozzle back. They were coming about every 45 seconds or so - it wasn't hard work, despite the risk of being run over by a careless driver. The guys in the pits wearing hazmat suits spraying the undercarriages with the really nasty stuff as they rolled by over their heads, they worked their asses off - and they got paid more to do it, as well they should. I also stood on my feet all day working on the floor of the NYSE - that job was a lot harder but not because we had to stand all day.

 

[Spartanmack]

The kicker (for me) was how 3 years of waking up at 4:30 am to deliver newspapers only covered 1 semester's room & board at Michigan.

I have no idea how I lasted 2 years on my paper route. It wasn't hard work mind you (at least not once I was strong enough to keep the bike from tipping over from the Sunday edition), but the hours were pure misery.

 

[Mitchrapp]

If you're dragging when you get home its hard, whether cashiering or roofing.

 

[Spartanmack]

Some burger flippers work their asses off. Seems like most don't, but I don't know how long those that don't last and I also think it's pretty natural to underestimate how hard everybody else is working. Doesn't mean your distinction is valid. There are days I can sit at a desk all day and feel absolutely comfortable saying I worked my ass off.

I never made any argument about McDonald's being rich enough to pay a certain wage or that Walmart could afford more so they should. Seems to be your favorite argument to reject, but I'm not making that point. I said labor is undervalued because it's going to people that are supplementing their government assistance. There being an income threshold you can stay under and still get both pushes wages down.

That has nothing to do with the point you're more comfortable arguing against.

I've had tough, long days at the office as well but the standard for hard work in a non-labor position is a bit different than hard work for a physical laborer - skilled or not. At least, having done both, my standard is different.

I didn't accuse you of making that argument about McD's. I was having that argument w/ Sbee and bigguns. But the need for welfare is not evidence that a worker's labor is being undervalued. You can ignore the reality of competition all you want but the fact that there are lower needs low skilled workers willing to do the work for less than the cost of living is the primary driver of the clearing price for wages.

 

[grandy]

I'm surprised this "hard work" discussion went on so long. Regardless of what you do, it's all about the end result and that has a large impact on your wage. Personally, I would define hard work as anything physically or mentally draining, I've worked jobs that were both and I even had a job that was neither (work-study job, ). I appreciate even the lowest of jobs, I sure as hell wouldn't want to deal with fast food customers all day, but in the end it's about production and results which is why jobs are valued where they are (and why politicians are grossly overpaid).

 

[tinselwolverine]

no, but they can automate enough of the process that they won't need most of their cashiers and food runners and they could put the special sauce on the customer side of the counter and let you do it - like they did w/ ketchup, mustard, fountain drinks, etc...

So I would put the special sauce on my Big Mac myself?

That would completely fuck up the dining experience for me.

 

[Gulo Blue]

I've had tough, long days at the office as well but the standard for hard work in a non-labor position is a bit different than hard work for a physical laborer - skilled or not. At least, having done both, my standard is different.

I didn't accuse you of making that argument about McD's. I was having that argument w/ Sbee and bigguns. But the need for welfare is not evidence that a worker's labor is being undervalued. You can ignore the reality of competition all you want but the fact that there are lower needs low skilled workers willing to do the work for less than the cost of living is the primary driver of the clearing price for wages.

I'm not ignoring anything. You're ignoring a economic reality about how income limits for assistance impact wages.

And you're still responding to me about wages being less than cost of living for some reason. Why is that? Is that because I think minimum wage should vary from place to place like per diem rates? While I think minimum wage should vary with the cost of living, I didn't say it has to cover it. It just doesn't make sense to have the same minimum wage in rural North Dakota and New York City.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Some days I'd spend all day in meetings. Physically, I was sitting on my ass all day. Mentally, it was like someone was shoving a spear in my brain..

At the end of the day it was hard as fk. As hard as laying Pipe in Alaska.

 

[Gulo Blue]

There is a danger with this "we'll always need ditch diggers" line of thinking. It's possible we won't. We're learning to automate a lot of jobs and you can envision a day where 75% (for example) of the labor force is all that's needed to produce everything everyone needs. Go through the econ 101 thought experiment and figure out what happens when we hit that point. Consider the extremes, where the full labor force can't provide everything everyone would like (the historic norm) and the other case where 100 people can push a few buttons and make everything anyone could want. Then figure out what it looks like in the middle. What's the gradual transition look like? What happens to prices and wages?

Personally, I think the solution is to split the economy with 2 currencies.

 

[Spartanmack]

If you're dragging when you get home its hard, whether cashiering or roofing.

or maybe it's because they're 80+ lbs overweight and it's not the work, but hauling their own fat ass around that wears them out.

 

[Spartanmack]

I'm not ignoring anything. You're ignoring a economic reality about how income limits for assistance impact wages.

And you're still responding to me about wages being less than cost of living for some reason. Why is that? Is that because I think minimum wage should vary from place to place like per diem rates? While I think minimum wage should vary with the cost of living, I didn't say it has to cover it. It just doesn't make sense to have the same minimum wage in rural North Dakota and New York City.

I'm not ignoring it, I just think it's second order at best and the primary driver is supply. And I'm against the minimum wage altogether but if we're going to have one I'm not at all opposed to it being higher in NY than in Bismarck, just like wages set by natural market forces.

 

[grandy]

There is a danger with this "we'll always need ditch diggers" line of thinking. It's possible we won't. We're learning to automate a lot of jobs and you can envision a day where 75% (for example) of the labor force is all that's needed to produce everything everyone needs. Go through the econ 101 thought experiment and figure out what happens when we hit that point. Consider the extremes, where the full labor force can provide everything everyone would like (the historic norm) and the other case where 100 people can push a few buttons and make everything anyone could want. Then figure out what it looks like in the middle. What's the gradual transition look like? What happens to prices and wages?

Personally, I think the solution is to split the economy with 2 currencies.

Depending on how far into the future we're talking about, I could see one of two things happening.

- The grim possibility that the world population will eventually correct itself in order to support the amount of labor required in the world. This is a somewhat horrifying prospect and it probably occurs even today in some parts of the world. This will probably occur due to food shortages and unfavorable living conditions resulting in disease and starvation

- There will be a cultural shift in which currency will no longer be the driving force, instead people will work solely to advance the human race and support the greater good, by then we'll likely have peace throughout the world with no need to outdo each other anymore, this sounds too good to be true and probably the result of me watching too much Star Trek.

 

[tinselwolverine]

- There will be a cultural shift in which currency will no longer be the driving force, instead people will work solely to advance the human race and support the greater good, by then we'll likely have peace throughout the world with no need to outdo each other anymore, this sounds too good to be true and probably the result of me watching too much Star Trek.

No, I think you're right, this is probably going to happen...hey I have a snappy catch phrase for this...

From each, according to their ability; to each, according to their need...

I need a lot of shit, and I really can't do very much...