MSU pres. Resigns

[Gulo Blue]

ok, but that doesn't mean that no other school has or wouldn't protect the names of people who were accused, investigated and cleared.

Here we go, another "protect the names of the accused" post. We really need to find someone that wants to argue the other side of this.

 

[Spartanmack]

Here we go, another "protect the names of the accused" post. We really need to find someone that wants to argue the other side of this.

I understand, you don't like that an entire page was redacted. Who knows what it says or what it's about. I'm not defending it, I'm not saying it's inappropriate either - I don't know. But you asked for examples, my point is they would likely be hard to find for a number of reasons but the absence of them doesn't disprove anything.

Personally, I don't think the Nassar cover up goes beyond the women's coach who protected/enabled him, maybe some of the trainers and the Title IX investigators he was close with who obviously failed miserably in their roles - at least as far as MSU is concerned. I don't know anything about the USA Gymnastics side. I haven't read much about what Simon said in the days leading up to her resignation, but it's my understanding the mob took her down for that and maybe assumptions that she was involved because so far there isn't any evidence she had an active role in the cover up.

I also don't think there's anything to this OTL piece which makes a weak attempt to link cases involving football and basketball players to some larger conspiracy to cover up sexual misconduct by MSU athletes. If the school, NCAA or law enforcement want to reopen the investigations, that's fine - and Izzo does have questions to answer about the Walton situation, Walton probably does too. But I have no problem with the school not forking over documents to an entertainment program particularly one that's shown itself to lie and omit facts in order to make very serious, yet unsubstantiated claims. In my mind, ESPN asking for this information is no different than if TMZ wanted to see the docs.

 

[Spartanmack]

Who is offended or aggravated?

I read his whole statement. It was a stupid thing to say. And as a big part of the university, you don't say that shit. Period, end of discussion.

Oh shit, THE DUDE HIMSELF regretting saying what he said.
https://www.freep.com/story/news/lo...michigan-state-university-trustee/1060198001/

Hell, HE IS NOT even defending himself. Only the MSU fans who are absolutely dug into this case are. Spartans make mistakes sometimes, it's okay. No one's perfect. He said something pretty stupid. Pick your battles elsewhere.

There's a lot to argue and discuss about this case. I understand why a lot of you guys are being passionate about what's happening, it's your school. And I don't blame you. But actually trying to justify what Ferguson said is laughable.

Oh shit, no way he could be saying that to appease the grievance hustlers. I suppose all those people in Salem who confessed to being witches were actually witches - they said so themselves, no need to see if they weigh as much as a duck.

I'm not passionate about this, I'm rational to the point of being dispassionate - I have no strong emotions about Ferguson at all. I'm just not going to hear things people aren't saying just because I don't like the word they use. I'm also not "dug into this case" - I only started commenting about it when the OTL report hit and people starting making wild accusations about widespread culture of indifference toward sexual assault and institutional conspiracy of cover-ups involving MD and TI. Particularly when the available evidence for the cases used (with the possible exception of the Walton case) not only doesn't support ESPN's accusations, but contradicts them. And the Walton case is only an exception because of the lack of information around it. It's not clear that Walton, let alone Izzo even knew he was accused of sexual assault.

 

[Gulo Blue]

I understand, you don't like that an entire page was redacted.

Still reducing it to one thing. It's not one thing, it's a pattern.

ESPN sues MSU, MSU loses.
MSU sues ESPN, MSU loses.
They redact way past what can claimed is just names.
Their internal investigation is designed to inhibit transparency and future discovery.
They strip the conclusions of a Title IX investigation to the bare minimum and admit nothing.
They tell the government they want their Title IX investigation ended because they are acting in good faith while leaving out the Nassar investigation.

That's not just protecting the names of the innocent or doing what anyone else would do. That's pushing as far as the institution thinks it can push to protect itself.

 

[tinselwolverine]

You do sort of have to wonder why the USOC would send athletes for treatment to a 17th century apothecary like Moo U, when it had options like the Mayo Clinic or Johns Hopkins or the Cleveland Clinic, or UCLA medical or even the University of Michigan, for God's sake.

And of course, you have Peter Secchia, questioning the parental oversight of the victims.

Which is always popular.

 

[Sbee]

You do sort of have to wonder why the USOC would send athletes for treatment to a 17th century apothecary like Moo U, when it had options like the Mayo Clinic or Johns Hopkins or the Cleveland Clinic, or UCLA medical or even the University of Michigan, for God's sake.

And of course, you have Peter Secchia, questioning the parental oversight of the victims.

Which is always popular.

well, Nassar is a Wolverine, must be why the USOC held him in such high regard

 

[dubbsco]

I understand, you don't like that an entire page was redacted. Who knows what it says or what it's about. I'm not defending it, I'm not saying it's inappropriate either - I don't know. But you asked for examples, my point is they would likely be hard to find for a number of reasons but the absence of them doesn't disprove anything.

Personally, I don't think the Nassar cover up goes beyond the women's coach who protected/enabled him, maybe some of the trainers and the Title IX investigators he was close with who obviously failed miserably in their roles - at least as far as MSU is concerned. I don't know anything about the USA Gymnastics side. I haven't read much about what Simon said in the days leading up to her resignation, but it's my understanding the mob took her down for that and maybe assumptions that she was involved because so far there isn't any evidence she had an active role in the cover up.

I also don't think there's anything to this OTL piece which makes a weak attempt to link cases involving football and basketball players to some larger conspiracy to cover up sexual misconduct by MSU athletes. If the school, NCAA or law enforcement want to reopen the investigations, that's fine - and Izzo does have questions to answer about the Walton situation, Walton probably does too. But I have no problem with the school not forking over documents to an entertainment program particularly one that's shown itself to lie and omit facts in order to make very serious, yet unsubstantiated claims. In my mind, ESPN asking for this information is no different than if TMZ wanted to see the docs.

Here's a key quote in here as to why MSU is under the microscope so much, and I'm using your words here:"

maybe some of the trainers and the Title IX investigators he was close with who obviously failed miserably in their roles

If those Title IX investigators did a crap job and were more worried about covering their own ass, why should anyone outside of MSU trust them to do the "right" thing for the basketball and football program??

This is EXACTLY why all these questions are being asked. The entire culture in that program is rotten right now, so there damn well is some things that need to be dug up.

The mob didn't take Simon or Hollis down. They did that to themselves.

 

[Michchamp]

I understand, you don't like that an entire page was redacted. Who knows what it says or what it's about. I'm not defending it, I'm not saying it's inappropriate either - I don't know. But you asked for examples, my point is they would likely be hard to find for a number of reasons but the absence of them doesn't disprove anything.

Personally, I don't think the Nassar cover up goes beyond the women's coach who protected/enabled him, maybe some of the trainers and the Title IX investigators he was close with who obviously failed miserably in their roles - at least as far as MSU is concerned. I don't know anything about the USA Gymnastics side. I haven't read much about what Simon said in the days leading up to her resignation, but it's my understanding the mob took her down for that and maybe assumptions that she was involved because so far there isn't any evidence she had an active role in the cover up.

I also don't think there's anything to this OTL piece which makes a weak attempt to link cases involving football and basketball players to some larger conspiracy to cover up sexual misconduct by MSU athletes. If the school, NCAA or law enforcement want to reopen the investigations, that's fine - and Izzo does have questions to answer about the Walton situation, Walton probably does too. But I have no problem with the school not forking over documents to an entertainment program particularly one that's shown itself to lie and omit facts in order to make very serious, yet unsubstantiated claims. In my mind, ESPN asking for this information is no different than if TMZ wanted to see the docs.

I'm reading a lot of "Durrr... I don't know... I don't think... I haven't read... probably... maybe... who knows..."

your committment to remaining willfully ignorant of the facts so you can continue to argue with a straight face that there was no cover up, and no serious disregard for investigating sexual or physical assaults by athletes at your alma mater is truly admirable.

 

[Sbee]

Here's a key quote in here as to why MSU is under the microscope so much, and I'm using your words here:"

maybe some of the trainers and the Title IX investigators he was close with who obviously failed miserably in their roles

If those Title IX investigators did a crap job and were more worried about covering their own ass, why should anyone outside of MSU trust them to do the "right" thing for the basketball and football program??

This is EXACTLY why all these questions are being asked. The entire culture in that program is rotten right now, so there damn well is some things that need to be dug up.

The mob didn't take Simon or Hollis down. They did that to themselves.

What rotten program are you talking about? Gymnastics?

I'm surprised that people spend more time talking about Simon and Hollis than Kathy Klages who was told a number of times and didn't believe the victims. Why is she getting a pass?

There was a failure in the title IX investigation, I'm sure Nassar was good at manipulating people to believe him and made a strong case. Nassar was interviewed by the police in 2004 for his practices, the Meridian Township came to the same conclusion a decade earlier, that they believed that the practice was medically necessary.

What did Simon and Hollis do to take themselves down other than being in leadership positions? How could they have stopped Nassar? I see how the mob mentality causes them to step down, but it's a big reach to speculate that they were culpable

 

[Sbee]

I'm reading a lot of "Durrr... I don't know... I don't think... I haven't read... probably... maybe... who knows..."

your committment to remaining willfully ignorant of the facts so you can continue to argue with a straight face that there was no cover up, and no serious disregard for investigating sexual or physical assaults by athletes at your alma mater is truly admirable.

So saying that you can't come to a conclusion before you know the facts is somehow willfully ignorant?

Lauren Allswede, the centerpiece of the interview (who never met Izzo or Dantonio) said yesterday that she doesn't think that athletes are treated different than regular students when it comes to sexual assault allegations.

 

[dubbsco]

What rotten program are you talking about? Gymnastics?

I'm surprised that people spend more time talking about Simon and Hollis than Kathy Klages who was told a number of times and didn't believe the victims. Why is she getting a pass?

There was a failure in the title IX investigation, I'm sure Nassar was good at manipulating people to believe him and made a strong case. Nassar was interviewed by the police in 2004 for his practices, the Meridian Township came to the same conclusion a decade earlier, that they believed that the practice was medically necessary.

What did Simon and Hollis do to take themselves down other than being in leadership positions? How could they have stopped Nassar? I see how the mob mentality causes them to step down, but it's a big reach to speculate that they were culpable

I don't know what to tell you man. You guys have your heels dug in on this case and don't seem willing to give ANY chance that people did anything wrong. So I don't know how much further this discussion can go.

 

[gotime909]

I don't know what to tell you man. You guys have your heels dug in on this case and don't seem willing to give ANY chance that people did anything wrong. So I don't know how much further this discussion can go.

Are you fucking high?????? They?ve both repeatedly said there is fault somewhere, but without all the facts they are waiting to see who exactly is to blame. Even going as far to say that Izzo even has some questions they?d like to hear answered. You?re just an idiot fan like Bob and bunga that just want to see State?s football and basketball teams take a hit that you?re really ignoring the real tragedy here. I find it odd that a group that I?ve see just shit on ESPN since this forum was created suddenly are taking a hack article from there as gospel.

 

[dubbsco]

Are you fucking high?????? They?ve both repeatedly said there is fault somewhere, but without all the facts they are waiting to see who exactly is to blame. Even going as far to say that Izzo even has some questions they?d like to hear answered. You?re just an idiot fan like Bob and bunga that just want to see State?s football and basketball teams take a hit that you?re really ignoring the real tragedy here. I find it odd that a group that I?ve see just shit on ESPN since this forum was created suddenly are taking a hack article from there as gospel.

Actually, if you've taken time to read through the thread, I've been siding with letting the facts come out and letting the case breathe.

But, I appreciate the complement.

 

[Michchamp]

What rotten program are you talking about? Gymnastics?

Program? you want to argue semantics again. I think his point was obvious. let's see... which State University located in Michigan is currently facing a mountain of scrutiny in the court of opinion, bad press, a mountain of lawsuits, federal and state investigations, and an NCAA investigation?

Hmm... what program could he be talking about? EMU? CMU? Ferris State? those aren't programs!

What did Simon and Hollis do to take themselves down other than being in leadership positions? How could they have stopped Nassar? I see how the mob mentality causes them to step down, but it's a big reach to speculate that they were culpable

aside from being in charge and ultimately responsible for everything that happens under their watch according to what the very definition of leadership is, off the top of my head there were also the reports of information regarding Nassar kept from the Feds & victims, and sitting around playing dumb as over 100+ victims came forward, lobbying Betsy DeVos to gut Title IX standards, damaging MSU's reputation, exposing the university to tens of millions of dollars in legal fees potential damages, etc. even if they somehow manage to beat some of the civil cases, and through their actions have shown a callous disregard for female students and student athletes, provoking no confidence votes from the students and faculty (which apparently does not matter to you at all).

aside from all that, like what did they do?

hurrr, anybody know?

 

[Sbee]

Program? you want to argue semantics again. I think his point was obvious. let's see... which State University located in Michigan is currently facing a mountain of scrutiny in the court of opinion, bad press, a mountain of lawsuits, federal and state investigations, and an NCAA investigation?

Hmm... what program could he be talking about? EMU? CMU? Ferris State? those aren't programs!



aside from being in charge and ultimately responsible for everything that happens under their watch according to what the very definition of leadership is, off the top of my head there were also the reports of information regarding Nassar kept from the Feds & victims, and sitting around playing dumb as over 100+ victims came forward, lobbying Betsy DeVos to gut Title IX standards, damaging MSU's reputation, exposing the university to tens of millions of dollars in legal fees potential damages, etc. even if they somehow manage to beat some of the civil cases, and through their actions have shown a callous disregard for female students and student athletes, provoking no confidence votes from the students and faculty (which apparently does not matter to you at all).

aside from all that, like what did they do?

hurrr, anybody know?

titles are important, Dubbsco mentioned a program, that's a specific sport. The athletic department encompasses all of the programs. There was obviously a problem with the gymnastics program, I have yet to see that things weren't handled properly by football and basketball, with a few questions still to be answered. Trying to link all of them together is reckless, Nassar reported up through the department of osteopathic medicine, so did the trainers, the only link to the athletic department was Kathy Klages who was fired last year and should face the max punishment available.

As for the students protesting the board of trustees, I'd bet that half of them don't know how the trustees get their position. If you have no confidence, you can vote them out in November.

 

[Sbee]

Are you fucking high?????? They?ve both repeatedly said there is fault somewhere, but without all the facts they are waiting to see who exactly is to blame. Even going as far to say that Izzo even has some questions they?d like to hear answered. You?re just an idiot fan like Bob and bunga that just want to see State?s football and basketball teams take a hit that you?re really ignoring the real tragedy here. I find it odd that a group that I?ve see just shit on ESPN since this forum was created suddenly are taking a hack article from there as gospel.

I wouldn't lump Dubbsco in with those other two, their opinions on this matter reek of fanboy mentality. It's obvious they want the worst possible scenario for MSU so they post things that are blatantly false and jump to negative conclusions based on those falsehood.

As Gotime said, I have said that Izzo needs to answer some questions on this and they need to get out and talk about it. My assumption is that they are investigating each incident to make sure there are no surprises that come out after they talk. I wish Izzo made a stronger statement like MD did, but maybe he needs to get more info before he can say that everything was handled properly. A lot of people don't want to accept that a serial predator fooled a lot of people, including the Meridian Township Police Department and the MSU title IX office. There were failures in title IX, I don't think there was any blatant cover up, I don't think anyone said that that they knew abuse was happening but tried to bury it like they did at Baylor and PSU.

 

[tomdalton22]

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/01/us/msu-amanda-thomashow-complaint-larry-nassar/index.html

Here's a CNN article. No mention of Izzo or Dantonio. However, it does spell out how terribly MSU handles sexual assault cases. That counselor said she saw hundreds of sexual assault cases involving students and only one was ever prosecuted.

 

[Sbee]

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/01/us/msu-amanda-thomashow-complaint-larry-nassar/index.html

Here's a CNN article. No mention of Izzo or Dantonio. However, it does spell out how terribly MSU handles sexual assault cases. That counselor said she saw hundreds of sexual assault cases involving students and only one was ever prosecuted.

I can name two that were prosecuted involving football players

 

[dubbsco]

I wouldn't lump Dubbsco in with those other two, their opinions on this matter reek of fanboy mentality. It's obvious they want the worst possible scenario for MSU so they post things that are blatantly false and jump to negative conclusions based on those falsehood.

As Gotime said, I have said that Izzo needs to answer some questions on this and they need to get out and talk about it. My assumption is that they are investigating each incident to make sure there are no surprises that come out after they talk. I wish Izzo made a stronger statement like MD did, but maybe he needs to get more info before he can say that everything was handled properly. A lot of people don't want to accept that a serial predator fooled a lot of people, including the Meridian Township Police Department and the MSU title IX office. There were failures in title IX, I don't think there was any blatant cover up, I don't think anyone said that that they knew abuse was happening but tried to bury it like they did at Baylor and PSU.

Thanks. I thought I've made it pretty darn clear in here through these conversations that this stuff is going to take awhile and I haven't sided with the mob. I don't agree with the sides that you and your other MSU fans have taken, but that's all good. Part of the discussion.

 

[Sbee]

Thanks. I thought I've made it pretty darn clear in here through these conversations that this stuff is going to take awhile and I haven't sided with the mob. I don't agree with the sides that you and your other MSU fans have taken, but that's all good. Part of the discussion.

My thought is to wait and see on that Walton 2 allegation, but I do think it was highly irresponsible of Lauren Allswede and ESPN to come out and make damning allegations without details. They cost Payne his job in the NBA over a situation that was investigated 8 years ago and he was clear, Walton is going to have to wear that stain on him for the rest of his life, it will make him toxic to anyone who wants to hire him. If he committed a rape, he deserves it, but ESPN better have more facts to back that up other than one letter from the family of a woman who claims she was raped. You should have evidence if you're going to potentially damage someone for life. That's the same thing with Izzo and MD, trying to throw them under the same blanket as Larry Nassar is reprehensible.