No Justice No Peace

[Gulo Blue]

but seriously... look up redlining if you dont believe me.

Why do you think I don't know this stuff? Or don't believe it?

 

[Michchamp]

Nobody thinks "the socioeconomics just are". Everyone who disagrees with you has explained and listed the reasons why they think we got to this point as a country. Each of them are more well reasoned and thorough than your grossly oversimplified cries of racism.

no... they just repeated (with ZERO self awareness) the racist claims I mentioned before: blacks are lazy, "unaccountable," high school dropouts, thieves, looters, etc.

why are these things racist? because they stigmatize the race as having those qualities and ignore centuries of oppression and oppressive policies, going back to slavery, that lead to the socioeconomic differences we see today.

"thanks for taking a sec to explain this to us, Michchamp."

no problem, racists.

 

[Michchamp]

Why do you think I don't know this stuff? Or don't believe it?

because you questioned my claim that policies that negatively affect blacks are intentional.

 

[Gulo Blue]

because you questioned my claim that policies that negatively affect blacks are intentional.

No, I questioned the idea that it's organized on a socioeconomic scale. If socioeconomics were determined just by the things you've listed, we could fix the problem. But it's more difficult than that.

You've discussed things up through the 70's, but things are still bad and it's 1,000 little cuts that are still causing inequality. You don't even have to be racist or especially biased to be part of the problem. People exhibit bias unconsciously. White Flight is a more easily understood example, but sociologists today are studying places where there is racial diversity in housing and are finding that there are barriers and segregation in behavior. Couple that with the fact that upward mobility crashed as racial discrimination in employment made gains and you have a better picture of how things got to be as they are than your wacko "agree with me or you're racist" conspiracy theories.

 

[tsmith7559]

that's rich coming from you, welchy.

That's right michchump...how's that socialist agenda working for us?

 

[tigermud]

solid commentary coverage of events (yesterday 4-28-2015)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmtojolRn7c

huh uh, save the mocking and shunning.. heard it all before.. truth up

 

[Spartanmack]

no... they just repeated (with ZERO self awareness) the racist claims I mentioned before: blacks are lazy, "unaccountable," high school dropouts, thieves, looters, etc.

why are these things racist? because they stigmatize the race as having those qualities and ignore centuries of oppression and oppressive policies, going back to slavery, that lead to the socioeconomic differences we see today.

"thanks for taking a sec to explain this to us, Michchamp."

no problem, racists.

I have never once said anything about black people being lazy thieves and looters or any other ethnic group. Not once. Anything I've said about accountability or the educational failures, I've blamed on the welfare state, not the people in general. That is your bull shit spin because you need to believe everyone that disagrees with you is racist. If anyone is lazy and unaccountable it's you for throwing around accusations of racism. I've consistently placed the blame for the plight of poor people in America squarely on the shoulders of the Dems who pushed the policies that have failed so miserably and created the situation we now find ourselves in.

 

[Michchamp]

I have never once said anything about black people being lazy thieves and looters or any other ethnic group. Not once. Anything I've said about accountability or the educational failures, I've blamed on the welfare state, not the people in general. That is your bull shit spin because you need to believe everyone that disagrees with you is racist. If anyone is lazy and unaccountable it's you for throwing around accusations of racism. I've consistently placed the blame for the plight of poor people in America squarely on the shoulders of the Dems who pushed the policies that have failed so miserably and created the situation we now find ourselves in.

I don't really know how to respond to this, because it appears you can't follow ideas or comments from post to post in this thread. Every new post is taken out of context from the previous ones, subject to pot shots, insults, etc.

I'm going to take a break from this thread for now.

 

[Michchamp]

No, I questioned the idea that it's organized on a socioeconomic scale. If socioeconomics were determined just by the things you've listed, we could fix the problem. But it's more difficult than that.

You've discussed things up through the 70's, but things are still bad and it's 1,000 little cuts that are still causing inequality. You don't even have to be racist or especially biased to be part of the problem. People exhibit bias unconsciously. White Flight is a more easily understood example, but sociologists today are studying places where there is racial diversity in housing and are finding that there are barriers and segregation in behavior. Couple that with the fact that upward mobility crashed as racial discrimination in employment made gains and you have a better picture of how things got to be as they are than your wacko "agree with me or you're racist" conspiracy theories.

we'll just have to agree to disagree. Where I see a pattern of discrimination here, amidst a mountain of evidence going back decades, and you see a bunch of totally random, personal decisions & biases with African Americans the hapless victims.

 

[Gulo Blue]

we'll just have to agree to disagree. Where I see a pattern of discrimination here, amidst a mountain of evidence going back decades, and you see a bunch of totally random, personal decisions & biases with African Americans the hapless victims.

...like I don't see a pattern of discrimination. Nice way to sign out, putting words in my mouth I never said. Well, we'll just have to disagree. Where I see the University of Michigan as an excellent model of what a university can be and an example to all, and you think it's not that great and Ohio State is a little bit better.

 

[biggunsbob]

Again where are the answers and solutions? I doubt there are many wealth fare precipitants making 36000 K a year. The great social experiment as some call it is really not being reported on correctly.

From a 2013 study there are over 18.9 Million white folks living below the poverty line a whooping 8 million more then black people, and 5 million more then Hispanic yet you never see the media cover poor white people and always portraying people of color as the ones on wealth fare. To say that white people do not have a advantage of over people of color is just not correct.. Yes it is getting better but There has been a fight tooth and nail to just break down the few bearers that have been brought down..

Yes 27 percent of African Americans and 25 percent of Latinos are poor, compared to just 9 percent of whites—and are disproportionately harmed by cuts to food stamps or limits to Medicaid but again what is the answer.. Cuts crossed the board? drug testing for some? Work programs for some? What will make you guys happy? Because there are a lot of poor folks in American.
It really is hard to find a White American that will stand up and say Yes I have been helped because these programs are in place. Well I have to say with out some of these programs My family would have been in a lot of trouble. Maybe my case was different due it it being medical but poor is poor and it sucks being in those lines.. I can't imagine any race wanting to stay there if they can help it..

Now the breakup African American families and some other families can directly be linked to the war on drugs.. So was it the CIA stopping Drug Cartels or were they helping funnel drugs right to the American streets?

 

[Gulo Blue]

Now the breakup African American families and some other families can directly be linked to the war on drugs.. So was it the CIA stopping Drug Cartels or were they helping funnel drugs right to the American streets?

The war on drugs, the spike in incarceration rates, and racially biased sentencing have been huge.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/26/opinion/sunday/forcing-black-men-out-of-society.html?_r=0

more than one in every six black men in the 24-to-54 age group has disappeared from civic life, mainly because they died young or are locked away in prison. This means that there are only 83 black men living outside of jail for every 100 black women

 

[Gulo Blue]

There's only 60 black men per 100 black women in Ferguson.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/04/20/upshot/missing-black-men.html?abt=0002&abg=0

 

[zyxt9]

Oh...

It's not that you're racist, you're just incredibly naive.

Here's a starting point with some information.

Ever heard of Jim Crow laws? Redlining? Plessy v. Ferguson?

Plessy was overturned by Brown v. Board of Education in 1954. But despite that, throughout the country municipalities resisted school integration and bussing. In our own state of Michigan, Milliken v. Bradley came down in 1974, and similar cases put an end to federal and state action in terms of forcing integration on a reluctant, hostile and generally racist white population.

These days, while overt or explicitly stated discriminatory laws are rejected as unconstitutional, you still have racist gerrymandering, and other incentives intended to roll back the rights of minorities, particularly African American minorities, like Voter ID laws, which even notable Republican & right-leaning Judges have stopped being fooled by.

you can try to argue that these were just motivated by individual racists within government, and there's no pattern or overall intent, and you maybe right (and would certainly be a popular speaker at CPAC, StormFront, etc.), but these actions have been so pervasive and devasting to African American communities throughout the country and its entire history that I think it's fair to say the situation of blacks today (education in particular, but also wealth, safety, health, and civil rights) is the result of a calculated, consistent policy of totally screwing them over.

you seriously need to grasp some historical facts.

black community wanted their kids to be taught by black teachers so they forcibly removed all non-black teachers from their schools, blaming the teachers and curriculum for under-performance.

then they change their tune and demand their kids be integrated/bussed into better schools. news flash, these students are still under-performing.

they've tried to blame it on other factors, saying the curriculum is too white. that's hysterical because all of the other minorities and kids of immigrant parents manage to perform as well or even better than white students.

so now you are going to point blame at...economics? this makes some sense as I have pointed to one element of their challenge is parents who are not home and demonstrating good parenting skills (keeping kids out of bad situations, ensuring they are doing their work, following up with teachers as needed, etc,). It isn't easy for many, but it is pointed out that kids from two parent families trend better in school regardless of ethnicity/background, even if both parents work multiple jobs (in which case having another adult relative who acts responsibly is also helpful). as the saying goes, it takes a village to raise a child, and evidence repeatedly shows the quality of a child's village is one of if not THE most important factor. Plenty of rich kids who have terrible village members end up being deadbeat drug addicts don't forget, which provides more insight than you seem willing to acknowledge based on your repeated cries that they just need money and resources, then they will be fine. Rich kid druggies also tend not to finish college, if they attend at all.

there are MANY factors involved. stop blaming outside factors until you get the inside factors squared away. can money and resources help, absolutely. however, they are best applied to kids who have a good village supporting them. this bares out time and time again, in every single study that accounts for it instead of merely looking at income. it is also how every single person who has gotten out of that environment managed to do so. every single one mentions how important a relative was. sometimes they mention one inspirational teacher or coach too; however, I've never known anyone who ever said they had more than 2 teachers who truly inspired them...so that's pretty standard IMO. it is difficult to predict which teacher will be that source, just like it's difficult to predict a best friend or spouse with high accuracy.

 

[zyxt9]

a very recent and well known example of my point, what was the general societal reaction to the mom who smacked up her son for joining the Baltimore riots? that is an example of a mom doing the right thing. that kid, though probably embarrassed, is going to be better for her actions than the other kids who didn't have a parent out there smacking them. not that I'm in favor of smacking a child, but that is a situation where I think everyone finds it acceptable to a degree (meaning not resulting in broken bones or other medical problems, but a treatable bruise or welt is not out of line in that specific situation, IMO). that kid has a village that is caring, protective, and demands better of him. not a guarantee for his success, but everyone I've seen agrees it was beneficial to his future, if he learns from it that is.

 

[Spartanmack]

I don't really know how to respond to this, because it appears you can't follow ideas or comments from post to post in this thread. Every new post is taken out of context from the previous ones, subject to pot shots, insults, etc.

I'm going to take a break from this thread for now.

hahaha. Amazing - you engage in arguments like a 2 year old, calling me names, singling me out in the very first post of threads you're starting, even starting threads about me (nice fail on that one by the way - I got a good laugh from that one), always calling me spartanhack or spartanracist often in threads I haven't even posted in. Then you have the nerve to accuse me of taking pot shots and insulting you. Your hypocrisy is as boundless as your stupidity. you're such a petty, small minded immature asshole. And a racist.

 

[tsmith7559]

Again where are the answers and solutions? I doubt there are many wealth fare precipitants making 36000 K a year. The great social experiment as some call it is really not being reported on correctly.

From a 2013 study there are over 18.9 Million white folks living below the poverty line a whooping 8 million more then black people, and 5 million more then Hispanic yet you never see the media cover poor white people and always portraying people of color as the ones on wealth fare. To say that white people do not have a advantage of over people of color is just not correct.. Yes it is getting better but There has been a fight tooth and nail to just break down the few bearers that have been brought down..

Yes 27 percent of African Americans and 25 percent of Latinos are poor, compared to just 9 percent of whites?and are disproportionately harmed by cuts to food stamps or limits to Medicaid but again what is the answer.. Cuts crossed the board? drug testing for some? Work programs for some? What will make you guys happy? Because there are a lot of poor folks in American.
It really is hard to find a White American that will stand up and say Yes I have been helped because these programs are in place. Well I have to say with out some of these programs My family would have been in a lot of trouble. Maybe my case was different due it it being medical but poor is poor and it sucks being in those lines.. I can't imagine any race wanting to stay there if they can help it..

Now the breakup African American families and some other families can directly be linked to the war on drugs.. So was it the CIA stopping Drug Cartels or were they helping funnel drugs right to the American streets?

Read it and weep
articles.baltimoresun.com/2013-08-13/news/bs-ed-welfare-20130813_1_welfare-recipients-typical-recipient-family-unsubsidized-jobs

 

[tinselwolverine]

you seriously need to grasp some historical facts.

black community wanted their kids to be taught by black teachers so they forcibly removed all non-black teachers from their schools, blaming the teachers and curriculum for under-performance.

Document this "historical fact."

 

[zyxt9]

Document this "historical fact."

This is from one website, feel free to rip it apart if you desire. The issue I'm sure is documented on other sites as well. I have my feverish son sleeping on my chest so researching further is difficult, sorry.

Ocean Hill-Brownsville from 1968

http://videri.org/index.php?title=The_Strike_that_Changed_New_York

As African American leaders increasingly viewed community based control as a means to address a broken education system, they sought a place implement their ideas. They found it in the Ocean Hill-Brownsville are of New York City. Gaining support from local government, African American in the Ocean Hill-Brownsville took control of the educational board within the community. They believed that in order to address the economic and social disparity within the city, black students needed black teachers who understood the issues their students faced in a racialized society. Podair argues that this not only stemmed from ideas about race, but over issues of class as well. White, often Jewish teachers, in Ocean Hill-Brownsville sought to impart a white middle class ethos on their African American students. While Podair never directly states it, the move to convey a white middle class culture on black students was steeped in ideas of racial superiority. By pushing their own ideas on what constituted a proper culture, white teachers de-legitimized black culture viewing it as inferior to their own. However, by calling for black teachers to teach black students, the community based education board in Ocean Hill-Brownsville, also sought to strip away autonomy from the majority white teacher?s union, the United Federation of Teachers. Illustrating this, the board canceled the contracts of nineteen white teachers who they viewed as union agitators. The result became a city wide teacher strike that pitted white teachers against the African American community of Ocean Hill-Brownsville.

 

[tinselwolverine]

I don't have to rip it apart at all. It's pretty limited-as an zero-substantiation of a huge leap brought it and generalized claim.