Suh contract

[Mitchrapp]

Don't underestimate Suh's contribution. There would be no Ansah without Suh and no Slay without Ansah and so on. Literally the whole defense is built off Suh taking on 3 guys.

But with Suh's money we could get more pieces and fill in at DE and LB.

 

[cheeno]

Daaaang. Suh is a god.

Football god, yes. Lock first ballot HOF.

 

[zoombabyzoom]

But with Suh's money we could get more pieces and fill in at DE and LB.

Yeah, but when you have someone as dominant as Suh using the method of using 3-4 guys to replace his overall impact just isn't well logical. Sure, it's great idea. We would spend less money possibly overall and would have a more rounded defense. But, finding 3-4 guys that will play so well as to not miss Suh's impact all in one year... not happening. If it was possible and able to be done, every team would.

Without Suh, you are gonna need an upgrade on the defensive line. Of course DT, but the pass rush will be less overall without his impact. Meaning, you need to upgrade DE as well. With Suh gone your LBs won't be as free as they usually are, so they will need to be improved upon as well. Secondary, again they will have less pass rush so the coverage needs to be tuned up.

Again, if it can be done do it. Makes the defense less vulnerable to one significant injury. But, finding so many players that fit the system, are available, aren't expensive, are really good, and want to be here seems difficult all in one year. Sure we could do it over a span of years, but thats taking a step back (we can't afford to)

 

[cheeno]

But with Suh's money we could get more pieces and fill in at DE and LB.

All my personal opinion but...

It's a tough trade off simply because you can plug replacement level players next to Suh and they can make plays. The guys we replace Suh's cap hit with will have to be legitimate playmakes in their own right.

Do you like Roth VanHalen or Sammy Hagar VanHalen?

 

[cheeno]

Yeah, but when you have someone as dominant as Suh using the method of using 3-4 guys to replace his overall impact just isn't well logical. Sure, it's great idea. We would spend less money possibly overall and would have a more rounded defense. But, finding 3-4 guys that will play so well as to not miss Suh's impact all in one year... not happening. If it was possible and able to be done, every team would.

Without Suh, you are gonna need an upgrade on the defensive line. Of course DT, but the pass rush will be less overall without his impact. Meaning, you need to upgrade DE as well. With Suh gone your LBs won't be as free as they usually are, so they will need to be improved upon as well. Secondary, again they will have less pass rush so the coverage needs to be tuned up.

Again, if it can be done do it. Makes the defense less vulnerable to one significant injury. But, finding so many players that fit the system, are available, aren't expensive, are really good, and want to be here seems difficult all in one year. Sure we could do it over a span of years, but thats taking a step back (we can't afford to)

Wow zoom, boy are we ever on the same page.

 

[Mitchrapp]

The fact is he doesn't want to play here. So what to do? Grab a couple DT, DE and continue a 4-3 or NT and a LB or two and go with the 3-4. Of course it's going to hurt not having him here but it is what it is..

Roth Van Halen, BTW. 2-fold, First, Because Roth was more dynamic and secondly, it broke up Sammy Hagar, which I liked as well.

But just like Sammy Hagar Van Halen, this still had success. And Hagar was still elected HOF as a member of Van Halen.

 

[inkfreq]

Again, if it can be done do it. Makes the defense less vulnerable to one significant injury. But, finding so many players that fit the system, are available, aren't expensive, are really good, and want to be here seems difficult all in one year. Sure we could do it over a span of years, but thats taking a step back (we can't afford to)

I honestly think Ansah can play fine in a 3-4. Worst case scenario, he moves to LB. So let's examine the game plan....

You free up about $9M losing Suh. I am not even sure how much you free up with Fairley, but it's safe to say it's another few million.

You take a guy like Raji in free agency with a chunk of that. In the draft you target a 3-4 DE early.

Ansah stays put, your LBs are Levy, Whitehead, Van Noy, and if Palmer can't pay the fourth spot, nor can Tulloch, you are targeting a 3-4 LB fairly early as well.

Realistically, where do the Lions need to spend some picks next season? CB? Probable. WR? Nope. TE? FUCK NO! RB? Maybe.

We don't have a ton of "needs" so a lot of those picks are going to be depth guys, and we still have money freed up in the cap with Tulloch, Fairley, and Suh in that scenario.

The Lions are actually in a great position to make that transition. They would need fewer bodies converting to a 3-4 than they would need tryin to stay with the 4-3 since Mosley is also a free agent.

We need a minimum of three DT's next season just to stick to the 4-3.

 

[cheeno]

The fact is he doesn't want to play here. So what to do? Grab a couple DT, DE and continue a 4-3 or NT and a LB or two and go with the 3-4. Of course it's going to hurt not having him here but it is what it is..

Roth Van Halen, BTW. 2-fold, First, Because Roth was more dynamic and secondly, it broke up Sammy Hagar, which I liked as well.

But just like Sammy Hagar Van Halen, this still had success. And Hagar was still elected HOF as a member of Van Halen.

Thanks for indulging me Mitch. And yes I agree if Suh is dead set against playing here let him walk. And yes if that happens 3-4 is the way to go. Roth is the best option for me Sammy is the 3-4.

 

[zoombabyzoom]

Suh can always be franchise tagged. Not like teams don't do this. Is it ideal? No, but its better than starting over

 

[zoombabyzoom]

Also, the idea of going to a 3-4 hasn't even been discussed by the coaches.

This isn't Madden where you throw a good pass rushing DE as a OLB and he is successful. Or throw a fat DT as a NT and he plays it perfectly. Add in a couple heavy DEs are there we go super bowl.

You would be asking so many players to up and change the style of football they not only perform well in, but the style they know and are comfortable with. This isn't something you just change. If this was a direction the team even thought about they would be dabbling in it already.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Suh can always be franchise tagged. Not like teams don't do this. Is it ideal? No, but its better than starting over

No. With the way Mayhew messed it up it'd be like a 25m franchise tag. No way in hell..

 

[zoombabyzoom]

No. With the way Mayhew messed it up it'd be like a 25m franchise tag. No way in hell..

I believe its still an average of the top 5 base salaries of the position. And it goes by in this case the top 5 DT salaries for the 2015 year. OR it can be 120% of the players base salary whichever is higher.

Here you go
http://www.spotrac.com/rankings/nfl/2015/defensive-tackle/limit-25/

Suh's base contract for next year if he didn't opt out is a measly $3,505,000.

So he would go with the average top 5 which comes out to $7,512,000.

That is for Exclusive Tag. The Transition or non exclusive tag wouldnt be used. It's funny because while 7.5 million is the franchise tag amount for a DT this coming year. Last year it was over 2 million higher thanks to McCoy and Suh entering into the huge years of their rookie deals.

 

[sggatecl]

Also, the idea of going to a 3-4 hasn't even been discussed by the coaches.

This isn't Madden where you throw a good pass rushing DE as a OLB and he is successful. Or throw a fat DT as a NT and he plays it perfectly. Add in a couple heavy DEs are there we go super bowl.

This actually doesn't work as well as it used to in Madden.

 

[Mitchrapp]

I believe its still an average of the top 5 base salaries of the position. And it goes by in this case the top 5 DT salaries for the 2015 year. OR it can be 120% of the players base salary whichever is higher.

Here you go
http://www.spotrac.com/rankings/nfl/2015/defensive-tackle/limit-25/

Suh's base contract for next year if he didn't opt out is a measly $3,505,000.

So he would go with the average top 5 which comes out to $7,512,000.

That is for Exclusive Tag. The Transition or non exclusive tag wouldnt be used. It's funny because while 7.5 million is the franchise tag amount for a DT this coming year. Last year it was over 2 million higher thanks to McCoy and Suh entering into the huge years of their rookie deals.

No its not. His cap hit would be over 20m..

 

[Mitchrapp]

Actually 26.7m. Because it's 22.4 this season.

 

[mhughes0021]

Actually 26.7m. Because it's 22.4 this season.

it would be over 28 mil cap hit.

 

[sggatecl]

Can we all agree it's a lot of fucking money against the cap for a DT, no matter how good?

 

[Mitchrapp]

Agree.

 

[brewer229]

I believe its still an average of the top 5 base salaries of the position. And it goes by in this case the top 5 DT salaries for the 2015 year. OR it can be 120% of the players base salary whichever is higher.

Here you go
http://www.spotrac.com/rankings/nfl/2015/defensive-tackle/limit-25/

Suh's base contract for next year if he didn't opt out is a measly $3,505,000.

So he would go with the average top 5 which comes out to $7,512,000.

That is for Exclusive Tag. The Transition or non exclusive tag wouldnt be used. It's funny because while 7.5 million is the franchise tag amount for a DT this coming year. Last year it was over 2 million higher thanks to McCoy and Suh entering into the huge years of their rookie deals.

As other's have said this is incorrect.

What you are forgetting is the franchise tag is based on the prior year's salary. Most teams don't move money into a voidable year. This was done to get Cap relief in prior years. Sort of a screw the future for now attitude.

2014 Salary:
Base: 12,550,000
Option: 3,470,000
Restructure: 6,267,500
Workout: 125,000
Total: 22,412,500

22,412,500 x 120% = 26,895,000

Add dead money in 2015: 9,737,500
2015 Cap hit if franchised = 36,632,500


Now that 9,737,500 is a cap hit no matter what happens, there is no avoiding that, so really it does not matter we are stuck with it. It just helped illustrate what a mess the handling of Suh's contract was.

The only way to keep Suh is to treat him like any other free agent that wants money. We just need to pay him the absolute most to get him. I don't see that as an option. Suh is gone after this year.

 

[LKP]

It wasn't a mess. The large amount was imposed by the old CBA. Two restructures were necessary and there is an option bonus as part of the 9.7 million. They waited for the cap to go up. It was smart and got us cap space in the past.

Lions are 20 million under next year by the way. This is without cutting Jones, Bush, Broyles etc. Maybe Tulloch.

http://www.mlive.com/lions/index.ssf/2014/12/report_nfl_projects_2015_salar.html

Lions have room.