Tigers sign SP Mike Pelfry and release him 3/30/2017

[gotime909]

Jack I don't stop on here as much as I used to because the board has become overwhelmingly negative. If you are not of the opinion that everything the Tigers do is wrong (seemingly) then you will face criticism or seek being a "homer" (which face it we all are.)

The outpouring of negativity regarding the Upton signing, looking back through the comments on Cespedes etc...is all I really need to see. Ultimately our team's primary objective is winning first and while some decisions are questionable I can at least get behind that.

For years people wanted Leyland gone and see what the end result was of that?

100% agree

 

[JackCade]

Yeah, jimmy that I don't mind it is the insistence that they are right despite all logic.

I've started to wonder about how much these forums are "sandboxes" for some of the reporter folk, which might explain their defense of Olney--the notion that because he has reported on the game of baseball for 26 years he has some special ability to evaluate the finances of a billion dollar baseball organization is clearly just absolutely absurd.

 

[kalinecountry]

I don't like Buster Olney and probably 95% of all the media/reporters out there, especially at espn.
They are good for getting the first bit of info on a trade or something, like 'The nose of LaMancha' Jon Heyman and Ken Rosenthal who blocked me on twitter lol.
Their opinions on players is ok, because everyone has the ability to look up a player's stats, what they say about other stuff is just an opinion, and everyone has one.

 

[tomdalton22]

Yeah, jimmy that I don't mind it is the insistence that they are right despite all logic.

I've started to wonder about how much these forums are "sandboxes" for some of the reporter folk, which might explain their defense of Olney--the notion that because he has reported on the game of baseball for 26 years he has some special ability to evaluate the finances of a billion dollar baseball organization is clearly just absolutely absurd.

I personally have been defending Olney's "credibility" as a qualified baseball person who gave an opinion that by adding another somewhat older player to a huge contract does not make sense due to the current makeup of their team.

 

[JackCade]

I personally have been defending Olney's "credibility" as a qualified baseball person who gave an opinion that by adding another somewhat older player to a huge contract does not make sense due to the current makeup of their team.

That is not a credibility I am refuting. I'm annoyed with myself for not remember exactly where it was so I can post it here, but Olney made a financial evaluation of the Tigers future and that is what I'm saying isn't credible.

I've given a fairly robust and nuanced reply already so ...

 

[JackCade]

I don't like Buster Olney and probably 95% of all the media/reporters out there, especially at espn.
They are good for getting the first bit of info on a trade or something, like 'The nose of LaMancha' Jon Heyman and Ken Rosenthal who blocked me on twitter lol.
Their opinions on players is ok, because everyone has the ability to look up a player's stats, what they say about other stuff is just an opinion, and everyone has one.

Exactly, Olney is slightly more qualified than most of us to access the Tigers longterm financial position, but it is still just a bs opinion.

 

[tomdalton22]

That is not a credibility I am refuting. I'm annoyed with myself for not remember exactly where it was so I can post it here, but Olney made a financial evaluation of the Tigers future and that is what I'm saying isn't credible.

I've given a fairly robust and nuanced reply already so ...

It's right here (the rest of the article is missing because I am not an ESPN insider subscriber)

Justin Upton is in the midst of what has been an excellent Major League Baseball career -- he already has 190 homers before his 29th birthday -- and after a very good 2015 season, he just got a $132.75 million deal from the Detroit Tigers, a merger of player and team that was formally announced Wednesday.

It's a tremendous contract for him, and it wouldn't have been possible without the aggressiveness of Tigers owner Mike Ilitch, who has demonstrated time and again that he is willing to take money from would-be profits -- money out of his own pocket, really -- and spend it because he wants to win. Ilitch has been a great owner for the Tigers, providing a product that inspires the team's fan base.

But there's no getting around this reality: The signing of Upton by the Tigers to this massive contract, right now, is just bad baseball business.

Add the Upton contract to the many others with future payroll obligations that have stacked up for the Tigers, including Miguel Cabrera's, Justin Verlander's, Victor Martinez's and Anibal Sanchez's. Almost all of the sport's teams are getting younger, yet the Tigers are getting older. The fine print:

Cabrera, who will be 33 in April, is signed through the 2023 season, for another $240 million.

Verlander, who turns 33 next month, is signed for another four years at $28 million annually.

Pitcher Jordan Zimmermann turns 30 in May, and he is signed for $110 million over the next five years.

Martinez, 37, is signed for $18 million annually for the next three seasons.

Sanchez, 32, is signed for $16.8 million per year in 2016 and 2017, with a $16 million team option or $5 million buyout for 2018.

Upton, who turns 30 in August 2017, is signed through 2021, at more than $22 million per year.

So long as Ilitch steps in to add whopper contracts without regard to payroll, this has a chance to work. Eventually, the credit-card bill will come due. If and when the Tigers get in line with the usual way teams run their businesses, once that day of reckoning arrives, the team will have to dig itself out of a Grand Canyon-sized hole of contracts.

 

[nsonnett14]

Jack I don't stop on here as much as I used to because the board has become overwhelmingly negative. If you are not of the opinion that everything the Tigers do is wrong (seemingly) then you will face criticism or seek being a "homer" (which face it we all are.)

The outpouring of negativity regarding the Upton signing, looking back through the comments on Cespedes etc...is all I really need to see. Ultimately our team's primary objective is winning first and while some decisions are questionable I can at least get behind that.

For years people wanted Leyland gone and see what the end result was of that?

This is basically what it is , and its always the same cast of characters . Now you may understand why i was getting so pissed on that Cespedes thread . Oh well , now i just try to ignore them or send them to bother someone else lol . Still some decent people posting here , but the doom and gloom guys are abundant

 

[sggatecl]

The Tigers have been on a downward trajectory for a few years now and people are surprised when some of us have a negative opinion.

I'm so sorry to interrupt your regularly scheduled off season circle jerk. Please continue. Long live Mike Pelfry!

 

[Thumb]

Jack I don't stop on here as much as I used to because the board has become overwhelmingly negative. If you are not of the opinion that everything the Tigers do is wrong (seemingly) then you will face criticism or seek being a "homer" (which face it we all are.)

The outpouring of negativity regarding the Upton signing, looking back through the comments on Cespedes etc...is all I really need to see. Ultimately our team's primary objective is winning first and while some decisions are questionable I can at least get behind that.

For years people wanted Leyland gone and see what the end result was of that?

There are good moves and bad moves, and some end up as a neutral swap. Personally I'm not against the Upton signing as a player, it's the money that bothers me. Not that he isn't worth it, but that it hamstrings the Tigers future.

But lately the Tigers have made a lot of moves (almost all of them really) that leave me scratching my head, and the record has reflected it, so while the goal is winning we aren't getting any better....but I guess I'm just being too negative right?

And I challenge you to find a bigger Leyland supporter on this board for the last 5 seasons or so than I was. I knew he had his flaws, but he knew how to run a clubhouse and his players in turn respected him and tried harder for him.

 

[Thumb]

The Tigers have been on a downward trajectory for a few years now and people are surprised when some of us have a negative opinion.

I'm so sorry to interrupt your regularly scheduled off season circle jerk. Please continue. Long live Mike Pelfry!

^^ this guy gets it anyways.

 

[JackCade]

I think the Tigers downhill slide has been about

1) lack of balance (as in no real bull pen and one dimensional offense)

2) lack of depth to account for injuries

3) injuries

4) Brad Ausmus

I do not see how it is at all related to payroll or longterm contracts really (maybe V-Mart, okay, but JV's injury was just bad luck and a fluke, whereas Martinez as a mid-late 30s catcher with a history of knee issues was just plain Mr. I being too loyal and generous).

Otherwise, Miggy has sort of PRODUCED!
JV looks poised to get back to pitching like an ace.
Sanchez had an under performing year but over performed in past years.
Joe Nathan's contract was a clear mistake also.
But Kinsler is one of the best 2nd basemen in baseball, even if he were getting paid the $6mil going to Prince he'd be close to worth it.

I just don't see how one can make a compelling argument that the contracts have been the problem the past few years.

I should add that I do not subscribe to the a player "should just retire at 32" stupidity that seems to float around. The greats are often quite good well into their late 30s.
Miggy is a great.
JV is a great.
V-Mart might be a great, but his knees aren't.

There is this aging narrative about the Tigers but they are one of the youngest teams in baseball.

Like, V-Mart is old, with bad knees, yes.
Kinsler is heading towards the last handful of years of his career, as is K-Rod, but good players like these two tend to stay good longer than less talented players during this stretch.
JV and Miggy are heading into 34, declining years, sure, but for guys as good as they are (particularly for Verlander) not likely to be a stretch of utter lack of production.
I mean, Miggy could retire at 40 the best hitter in baseball, as in win a batting title or even a triple crown, it is unlikely but it could happen.
JV could win another Cy or 4 before he retires.

Then there are all these players at mid-career or entering mid-career: JD, Upton, Zimm, Maybin.

Even Pelfrey, Sanchez, and Lowe aren't done yet.

Then there is all of this young talent coming up: Iggy, McCann, Castellanos, Norris, Fulmer, J. Wilson, A. Wilson, Hardy, Verhagen, Collins, Machado, Tokey Jones, Boyd, Gose, etc.

I see in the Tigers a team well poised for years of success even as their superstars enter the back ends of their careers, and I genuinely cannot grasp the logic of those who talk about closing windows. Maybe if DD had stayed in charge, but Avila seems to be better at putting a team together--although, we'll see if that is actually true.

 

[nsonnett14]

WOW , take a look at this downward spiral the team has been going on the past few years !! We are doomed ....

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/DET/

 

[tomdalton22]

I think the Tigers downhill slide has been about

1) lack of balance (as in no real bull pen and one dimensional offense)

2) lack of depth to account for injuries

3) injuries

4) Brad Ausmus

I do not see how it is at all related to payroll or longterm contracts really (maybe V-Mart, okay, but JV's injury was just bad luck and a fluke, whereas Martinez as a mid-late 30s catcher with a history of knee issues was just plain Mr. I being too loyal and generous).

Otherwise, Miggy has sort of PRODUCED!
JV looks poised to get back to pitching like an ace.
Sanchez had an under performing year but over performed in past years.
Joe Nathan's contract was a clear mistake also.
But Kinsler is one of the best 2nd basemen in baseball, even if he were getting paid the $6mil going to Prince he'd be close to worth it.

I just don't see how one can make a compelling argument that the contracts have been the problem the past few years.

I should add that I do not subscribe to the a player "should just retire at 32" stupidity that seems to float around. The greats are often quite good well into their late 30s.
Miggy is a great.
JV is a great.
V-Mart might be a great, but his knees aren't.

There is this aging narrative about the Tigers but they are one of the youngest teams in baseball.

Like, V-Mart is old, with bad knees, yes.
Kinsler is heading towards the last handful of years of his career, as is K-Rod, but good players like these two tend to stay good longer than less talented players during this stretch.
JV and Miggy are heading into 34, declining years, sure, but for guys as good as they are (particularly for Verlander) not likely to be a stretch of utter lack of production.
I mean, Miggy could retire at 40 the best hitter in baseball, as in win a batting title or even a triple crown, it is unlikely but it could happen.
JV could win another Cy or 4 before he retires.

Then there are all these players at mid-career or entering mid-career: JD, Upton, Zimm, Maybin.

Even Pelfrey, Sanchez, and Lowe aren't done yet.

Then there is all of this young talent coming up: Iggy, McCann, Castellanos, Norris, Fulmer, J. Wilson, A. Wilson, Hardy, Verhagen, Collins, Machado, Tokey Jones, Boyd, Gose, etc.

I see in the Tigers a team well poised for years of success even as their superstars enter the back ends of their careers, and I genuinely cannot grasp the logic of those who talk about closing windows. Maybe if DD had stayed in charge, but Avila seems to be better at putting a team together--although, we'll see if that is actually true.

The lack of balance and lack of depth is because of the way the team is put together...stars and scrubs. Injuries will happen and will probably happen more often to the older players.

Most of the time as players get older they get injured more often and their skills deteriorate. Once in a great while you get a player that produces into their mid to late 30's but those guys are the outliers. Guys in the past were mostly linked to PED's. Pitchers (specifically power pitchers) tend to fall off a cliff fast. We don't know when it happens, but it is likely to happen to JV during his current contract. The "young talent" you talk about isn't really that impressive and the farm system is depleted. Then you mention Pelfry and Lowe. I think we have established that Pelfry is garbage.

Some things that haven't been talked about. Zimmerman is the first pitcher who has already had TJ to ever get a $100M+ contract. Why is this important...because if he has another...he is pretty much done. There is a big risk there. And lastly...JD wants a long term contract. What kind of impact does the Upton signing have on that situation?

Your "prediction" for the Tiger's future sounds a lot like some of the predictions that a poster by the name of LKP has had for the Lions. He bases his predictions on the scenario that everything will go right. If you have 10 scenarios that need to go right...there is a good chance that some go right but a lot go wrong as well. Only time will tell.

 

[nsonnett14]

But Tom , where is the downward spiral the past few years that people are talking about ? Why , cause we had one bad year where injuries hit us hard ? Yea injuries happen to everyone and its part of baseball . But Winning the Central 4 years in a row prior to last year doesnt seem like theres this total collapse thats been happening for years now .

And every single move we make , the same group of people always bitch and complain about it for some reason or another . Just get's old is all , is there nothing that we do right ? I havent Rebbv be happy or "approve" of ANY move we have EVER made lol , and he gets proved wrong time and time again , but yet the same group of followers always piggy back on his post's .

To each their own , i happen to be a optimist and like it that way . Its like innocent until proven guilty .

 

[sggatecl]

2012 - Lost in WS 0-4
2013 - Lost in ALCS 2-4
2014 - Lost in LDS 0-3
2015 - 5th place in the Central Divison.

Runs scored has gone down 3 years in a row. Runs against has gone up 3 years in a row. Farm system is as depleted as ever and ranked dead last by many.

If you don't see how this is a downward trajectory and why people would be frustrated, I guess you're right. We're just haters.

 

[nsonnett14]

2012 - Lost in WS 0-4
2013 - Lost in ALCS 2-4
2014 - Lost in LDS 0-3
2015 - 5th place in the Central Divison.

Runs scored has gone down 3 years in a row. Runs against has gone up 3 years in a row. Farm system is as depleted as ever and ranked dead last by many.

If you don't see how this is a downward trajectory and why people would be frustrated, I guess you're right. We're just haters.

So you conveniently leave out 2011 and 2012 , well because that wouldnt fit your agenda , i get it . You guys are good at leaving out stats and numbers that dont help your argument .


Farm system is depleted because we have used the talent there to acquire big names , sorry cant have both . And we just acquired some major pitching prospects by selling at deadline , another great move to help out the future of the club .

So I dont see how the past few years lead to the team being on this major downward spiral and how our future looks so grim .

So yes , you guess basically are just haters . When have any of you actually liked something we have done ?

 

[nsonnett14]

BTW , you wanna use 2013 in your argument about runs scored decreasing and runs allowed increasing ? Doesnt work buddy , in the past 5 years , 2013 was our highest run scored total and lowest runs allowed total . hmmm , now what ?

 

[sggatecl]

So you conveniently leave out 2011 and 2012 , well because that wouldnt fit your agenda , i get it . You guys are good at leaving out stats and numbers that dont help your argument .


Farm system is depleted because we have used the talent there to acquire big names , sorry cant have both . And we just acquired some major pitching prospects by selling at deadline , another great move to help out the future of the club .

So I dont see how the past few years lead to the team being on this major downward spiral and how our future looks so grim .

So yes , you guess basically are just haters . When have any of you actually liked something we have done ?

My original quote: "The Tigers have been on a downward trajectory for a few years now..."

Why would I include seasons from 4-5 years ago when I said the LAST FEW years?? It's not like a skipped over a year in between.

You're the only one being over dramatic with the "major downward spiral" bullshit. I said simply that they've been on a downward trajectory over the last few years and despite the many excuses I'm sure you have, it's a fact.

As far as the farm system goes...yes, they definitely added some young pieces in the last 12 months. But how can you expect people to be excited about that when this organization has shown zero interest in developing their own talent to play on the MLB roster? Sure, trading away prospects for that last piece to push in the post season is completely understandable. But the Tigers have been more than one piece away since 2012, some might argue longer than that.

 

[nsonnett14]

My original quote: "The Tigers have been on a downward trajectory for a few years now..."

Why would I include seasons from 4-5 years ago when I said the LAST FEW years?? It's not like a skipped over a year in between.

You're the only one being over dramatic with the "major downward spiral" bullshit. I said simply that they've been on a downward trajectory over the last few years and despite the many excuses I'm sure you have, it's a fact.

As far as the farm system goes...yes, they definitely added some young pieces in the last 12 months. But how can you expect people to be excited about that when this organization has shown zero interest in developing their own talent to play on the MLB roster? Sure, trading away prospects for that last piece to push in the post season is completely understandable. But the Tigers have been more than one piece away since 2012, some might argue longer than that.

No , not a fact . Your opinion . I was challenging the fact that you and others seem to feel me are on some downward path to complete destruction . Sorry i dont feel that way , and actually i'm also sorry that you do . Carry on