Tigs 5/2 Lineup vs Royals.

[Thumb]

Look at the numbers before popping off. I never said it was not the players fault but early this season JB's numbers have been horrible. Managers are suppose to put the team in the best position to win.. if you look at the numbers that would be bringing in Dotel over Benoit right now..It may not be that way later in the season.. But right now it is... You did not see LaRussa last year for St. Louis not using his best option... Right now to get a clean inning it is not JB... Some of this has to fall on DD... Our bench is really bad when you are using Gerald Larid as your pinch runner... And when is enough bullpen enough... DD goes out and gets Dotel but when it was apparent that Albuquerque was not coming back why not go out and get some more bullpen help.... Yes the Players don't deliver and it is their fault but manager put the players in that spot to succeed or fail... Well today was another fail.... Loss belongs to the guy in charge...

No.

Benoit was 1 inning, and we did not have a lead. You want to argue Dotel over him that's fine, but this ballgame was 9 innings long.

We scratched out 1 hit through the first 6 innings.

Loss belongs to the TEAM.

 

[biggunsbob]

No.

Benoit was 1 inning, and we did not have a lead. You want to argue Dotel over him that's fine, but this ballgame was 9 innings long.

We scratched out 1 hit through the first 6 innings.

Loss belongs to the TEAM.

The point is right now Dotel is pitching better right now then Benoit. I realize how poor this team is put together right now by DD, and I still think we will win the division going away... But games like today are maddening. Verlander pitching good enough to win... No one hitting again after last nights game verses a terrible pitcher. Then Jim' decides to use a pitcher who is struggling to keep runners off the base over a guy who has been lights out.. Win the game today and worry about JB' and his hurt feelings another day.. Cardinals won a world series because their manager pushed all the right buttons with that bullpen that had no real closer last year. Gotta win games like today.. One game matters...

 

[Mitchrapp]

I think its a valid point. Assuming all are ready to go, JL has his 7th inning guy, 8th inning guy, tie game guy and close game guy and extra inning guy and etc. He doesn't deviate from that often..Maybe he needs to start using the better ones in some of those situations.

 

[Thumb]

Valid point or not we did not have a lead.

Put in Dotel for that inning and we still probably lose eventually because we could not hit the damn ball.

That's what I'm saying.

I'm not arguing who should or should not be pitching the 8th, just that this loss is not on the manager, it's on everyone.

I bitch about Smokey Jim as much as the next person, but I can't see hanging this loss on him because of a pitching choice.

 

[kalinecountry]

When I heard an inning on XM while driving this afternoon, and heard the Tigers had 1 hit off sanchez, all I could think was they were chasing and swinging at his crap low. Too many of the Tigers starters and subs do not make a pitcher throw strikes and take a pitch or two. It's almost like they are afraid to be patient, like Cabrera, Fielder, and the guy who seemed last year to have more of an 'effect' on those other batters by also taking pitches Victor. Those batters more often than not, it seemed, followed his lead in making a pitcher throw a strike and not chase low crap.
maybe I'm wrong, didn't see the game, but have seen that approach all too often in the past.

 

[spockmaster]

Valid point or not we did not have a lead.

Put in Dotel for that inning and we still probably lose eventually because we could not hit the damn ball.

That's what I'm saying.

I'm not arguing who should or should not be pitching the 8th, just that this loss is not on the manager, it's on everyone.

I bitch about Smokey Jim as much as the next person, but I can't see hanging this loss on him because of a pitching choice.

exactly. Benoit is a better pitcher than Dotel is but has been going through a rough patch. He cant get out of it unless we use him. tie game in the 9th, you go for your best relievers. leyland put Benoit in a situation that he dominated a lot last year and one that he should normally dominate. its Benoit's fault he didnt perform, not leylands. its our pathetic offense's fault that we were even in this situation in the first place.

 

[manchild98]

As long as he brings in Dotel, Benoit, Coke or Valverde in late inning situations then you can't blame Leyland. We're 24 games into a season. He's not going to panic and bail on guys with this small of a sample size. He'd be an awful manager if he did do that. He's not a fan. He's not going to overreact right now.

 

[biggunsbob]

exactly. Benoit is a better pitcher than Dotel is but has been going through a rough patch. He cant get out of it unless we use him. tie game in the 9th, you go for your best relievers. leyland put Benoit in a situation that he dominated a lot last year and one that he should normally dominate. its Benoit's fault he didnt perform, not leylands. its our pathetic offense's fault that we were even in this situation in the first place.

Benoit is not a better pitcher then Dotel. Benoit has had 3 good years and he is only 4 years younger the Dotel..But Dotel has had a much better career... Right now this year in 2012 Dotel is pitching better. In a tie game late like this all the roles are different. You throw that damn 789 bull-crap out the window. who knows if we would have won... If Dotel is in there and he gets Getz out we don't face Broxton. Then who knows maybe JB has a clean 10th inning facing different batters. Go with the guy pitching the best right now... End of story.. JB has allowed to many base runners right.. I know we will win this division going away but this team needs to wake up..

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/benoijo01.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/d/doteloc01.shtml

 

[jimrice]

Using the argument of "go with the best guy" right now using this small of a sample size, you end up with Laird as the full time catcher. He's currently hitting better than Avila "right this second".

Criticizing the use of Benoit is a hindsight, results based analysis.

 

[deathroh]

I think its a valid point. Assuming all are ready to go, JL has his 7th inning guy, 8th inning guy, tie game guy and close game guy and extra inning guy and etc. He doesn't deviate from that often..Maybe he needs to start using the better ones in some of those situations.

Seems like he deviated from his norm in this very instance. Usually you're all crying about Valverde pitching the 9th in a tie game.

 

[biggunsbob]

Using the argument of "go with the best guy" right now using this small of a sample size, you end up with Laird as the full time catcher. He's currently hitting better than Avila "right this second".

Criticizing the use of Benoit is a hindsight, results based analysis.

Have you seen all the base runners Benoit has had on base this season..Now the flip side is have you seem many base runners with Dotel pitching.. Again I was worried the moment I saw the Benoit was coming in... He is off right now with his pitches. Dotel is not. Pretty easy analysis....

 

[jimrice]

So, you're in favor or benching Avila for Laird fulltime? I don't see the difference in the situations. Forget expected production, just go with current numbers regardless of sample size.

Also an easy analysis.

My point is that the team doesn't need to make a knee jerk reaction. Managing by the latest numbers will make the team worse in the long run. Benoit had a slow start last year, too. Sometimes you have to ride it out when a guy has a track record. And Benoit is better than Dotel. There's no need to go back 12 years, that's irrelevant. In the last 3-5 years, Benoit is better.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Valid point or not we did not have a lead.

Put in Dotel for that inning and we still probably lose eventually because we could not hit the damn ball.

That's what I'm saying.

I'm not arguing who should or should not be pitching the 8th, just that this loss is not on the manager, it's on everyone.

I bitch about Smokey Jim as much as the next person, but I can't see hanging this loss on him because of a pitching choice.

Dumbest assumption ever.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Using the argument of "go with the best guy" right now using this small of a sample size, you end up with Laird as the full time catcher. He's currently hitting better than Avila "right this second".

Criticizing the use of Benoit is a hindsight, results based analysis.

RP are much different that position players. Now if there are 2 players who share a position, Raburn and DY for example, they only play left they yeah play the best one. The one who's hot.

 

[Thumb]

Dumbest assumption ever.

Well seeing as you explained it so carefully Mitch, I have to say, dumbest post ever.

 

[biggunsbob]

So, you're in favor or benching Avila for Laird fulltime? I don't see the difference in the situations. Forget expected production, just go with current numbers regardless of sample size.

Also an easy analysis.

My point is that the team doesn't need to make a knee jerk reaction. Managing by the latest numbers will make the team worse in the long run. Benoit had a slow start last year, too. Sometimes you have to ride it out when a guy has a track record. And Benoit is better than Dotel. There's no need to go back 12 years, that's irrelevant. In the last 3-5 years, Benoit is better.

Hitters and pitchers are different, and you know it... JB is struggling right now having clean innings... Dotel is not... The whole thing has nothing to do with Avila and Laird, and their hitting... Right now as of yesterday the best way for the tigers to get to the bottom of the 9th without having to face Broxton was to use Dotel over Benoit... It is a pretty easy call to make... Sorry for your blindness in this... Lets move on we just disagree.. Heck how many clean innings has Benoit have this year... Not many... I hope he can turn it around like last year but the facts are he cost the tigers the game yesterday and Jim had a chance to use the numbers........He uses small sample sizes when it comes to hitters....Why not with JB..

 

[Thumb]

BTW Mitch, you're right.

A much smarter assumption would be that of we used Dotel, he would have K'd the side, than our hitter inspired by his incredible pitching would have finally decided to do something, and we would have won on a walkoff grand slam after we loaded the bases.

It's the only logical conclusion.

Fire Leyland.

 

[Thumb]

RP are much different that position players. Now if there are 2 players who share a position, Raburn and DY for example, they only play left they yeah play the best one. The one who's hot.

So you agree Laird over Avila then?

 

[Mitchrapp]

Well seeing as you explained it so carefully Mitch, I have to say, dumbest post ever.

So if it goes extra inning, we lose? If its close late we have no chance to win? Didn't you say the same thing the other day when we got screwed on a game winning run, we would have lost anyway? Didn't seem KC was scoring a lost either..

Worse assumption ever.

 

[Mitchrapp]

So you agree Laird over Avila then?

Avila is the starter. DY and Raburn wouldn't be starters in my little scenario. When I meant sharing I meant equal sharing.