Tigs 5/2 Lineup vs Royals.

[Thumb]

So if it goes extra inning, we lose? If its close late we have no chance to win? Didn't you say the same thing the other day when we got screwed on a game winning run, we would have lost anyway? Didn't seem KC was scoring a lost either..

Worse assumption ever.

No Mitch.

What I was saying is you don't blame the MANAGER for the loss.

We sucked for 9 innings, not just the 9th, so even if Dotel pitched, how likely was it we wind up hitting all of a sudden?

You're reading the post out of context, go re-read the thread.

This loss is on the TEAM, the Leyland haters are trying to put this on him for using Benoit, but that was 1 inning, out of 9.

 

[Mitchrapp]

No Mitch.

What I was saying is you don't blame the MANAGER for the loss.

We sucked for 9 innings, not just the 9th, so even if Dotel pitched, how likely was it we wind up hitting all of a sudden?

You're reading the post out of context, go re-read the thread.

This loss is on the TEAM, the Leyland haters are trying to put this on him for using Benoit, but that was 1 inning, out of 9.

I agree with that but to assume we would have lost anyway because of our pathetic offense makes no sense. And suddenly hitting again, we had 2-run dinger the half inning before. We just needed a hit or two.

 

[Thumb]

Avila is the starter. DY and Raburn wouldn't be starters in my little scenario. When I meant sharing I meant equal sharing.

Flawed scenario then.

Because DY is the starter in LF. (unless it changes after his re-instatement) He has started the most games there 12.

Raburn has started 5.

That's not equal.

 

[jimrice]

Why are relief pitchers different? If Dotel suddenly gets the 8th, do you not think Benoit will see that as a demotion? I think you are saying that relief pitchers are different because it aids your argument. I made a perfectly logical argument that your way would dictate that Avila gets benched for Laird. And I don't think that's any way to manage a club.

 

[jimrice]

So, going by this year's stats so far.

Closer - Dotel
Set-UP- Coke/Balester

7th - Benoit
Long - Valverde

 

[Thumb]

I agree with that but to assume we would have lost anyway because of our pathetic offense makes no sense. And suddenly hitting again, we had 2-run dinger the half inning before. We just needed a hit or two.

Okay, so it's not okay to assume we would have lost, but it's okay to assume we would have won?

We just needed a hit or two, and so did they.

We might have won, we might have lost, we might have played 16 innings.

But you can't blame Leyland for using Benoit anymore then you have to blame him for using all the guys in the lineup we managed a single hit off a crummy starter.

 

[biggunsbob]

So, going by this year's stats so far.

Closer - Dotel
Set-UP- Coke/Balester

7th - Benoit
Long - Valverde

I am not saying that at all... Yesterdays game was tied 2-2 in the ninth.. All tradition roles you have set ( Or Jim has set) are thrown out the window... it is called adapting to the situation. You have on pitcher Benoit who has been struggling to keep runners off base this year and one pitcher Dotel he has been lights out... It is called using your best guy to get you to the bottom of the 9th still tied with a chance to win the game.. Using small sample sizes like Jim does with hitters can apply here with the two pitchers. I could care less that JP is 2-17 verses CC.. I would prefer him to play over Santiago.. Using the sample size we have this year calls for Dotel over Benoit in a tie game in the ninth...

 

[Mitchrapp]

Flawed scenario then.

Because DY is the starter in LF. (unless it changes after his re-instatement) He has started the most games there 12.

Raburn has started 5.

That's not equal.

Dude, its a scenario. I was trying to make a point.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Okay, so it's not okay to assume we would have lost, but it's okay to assume we would have won?

We just needed a hit or two, and so did they.

We might have won, we might have lost, we might have played 16 innings.

But you can't blame Leyland for using Benoit anymore then you have to blame him for using all the guys in the lineup we managed a single hit off a crummy starter.

Of course not, I never did.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Why are relief pitchers different? If Dotel suddenly gets the 8th, do you not think Benoit will see that as a demotion? I think you are saying that relief pitchers are different because it aids your argument. I made a perfectly logical argument that your way would dictate that Avila gets benched for Laird. And I don't think that's any way to manage a club.

Because they're both setup guys where with the C, one is a starter and the other is a bench player. So its a bit different.

 

[jimrice]

Because they're both setup guys where with the C, one is a starter and the other is a bench player. So its a bit different.

It's only "different" because it doesn't support your argument.

 

[jimrice]

I am not saying that at all... Yesterdays game was tied 2-2 in the ninth.. All tradition roles you have set ( Or Jim has set) are thrown out the window... it is called adapting to the situation. You have on pitcher Benoit who has been struggling to keep runners off base this year and one pitcher Dotel he has been lights out... It is called using your best guy to get you to the bottom of the 9th still tied with a chance to win the game.. Using small sample sizes like Jim does with hitters can apply here with the two pitchers. I could care less that JP is 2-17 verses CC.. I would prefer him to play over Santiago.. Using the sample size we have this year calls for Dotel over Benoit in a tie game in the ninth...

So, you criticize the manager for using small sample size when it doesn't work out and criticize him for not using small sample sizes when it doesn't work out? Looks like you've covered all the bases.

 

[Mitchrapp]

It's only "different" because it doesn't support your argument.

They're both setup guys, how is that hard to understand. They both pitch the 7th or 8th so kind of interchangeable. On offense, we know Avila is getting 5 or 6 games a week, so its different.

 

[Thumb]

Well I guess without making this a 20 page thread I'll say this:

I don;t feel we lost this game because of the 9th inning. Not because of Benoit. Not because of Leyland.

But because we were bad all game, the entire team shares this loss, from position players, to pitchers, to managers and coaching staff.

It was not a well played game, we lost.

Let's move on, bring on the ChiSox.

 

[Mitchrapp]

We lost because the other team scored more runs. 98% of the time that's what happens :hehe:

 

[biggunsbob]

Ok let us start over.....
I would have preferred Dotel over Benoit because he is pitching a lot better right now..

Dotel.......... 8.2 IP...4 hits......2 walks....10 k's and no runs at all...
Benoit .......10.1 IP....14 hits...9 walks....17 k's.......6 runs and 5 earned runs.

There is no question as of May 3rd, 2012 who is pitching better and in the 9th inning of a tie game there is no defined role for relief pitchers. I don't care about sample sizes in the pitchers and or hitters... As of right now one guy is pitching better then the other guy... It is not even close....

 

[jimrice]

Ok let us start over.....
I would have preferred Dotel over Benoit because he is pitching a lot better right now..

Dotel.......... 8.2 IP...4 hits......2 walks....10 k's and no runs at all...
Benoit .......10.1 IP....14 hits...9 walks....17 k's.......6 runs and 5 earned runs.

There is no question as of May 3rd, 2012 who is pitching better and in the 9th inning of a tie game there is no defined role for relief pitchers. I don't care about sample sizes in the pitchers and or hitters... As of right now one guy is pitching better then the other guy... It is not even close....

No one is struggling to understand the numbers. Your point is clear. You want the guy to get the job done, if the guy doesn't get the job done then you will criticize the manager for using the wrong guy. The argument you use will vary, depending on which guy fails. It allows you to always criticize the manager instead of the player because you will always have a reason why the manager used the wrong guy. Sometimes those reasons will contradict each other from game to game to insure that the manager is always to blame. I think we get it.

 

[biggunsbob]

No one is struggling to understand the numbers. Your point is clear. You want the guy to get the job done, if the guy doesn't get the job done then you will criticize the manager for using the wrong guy. The argument you use will vary, depending on which guy fails. It allows you to always criticize the manager instead of the player because you will always have a reason why the manager used the wrong guy. Sometimes those reasons will contradict each other from game to game to insure that the manager is always to blame. I think we get it.

Has Jim done a great job.. I am so tired of everyone defending this guy.. He is a marginally above average manager. 1600-1597... And guys like you defend Jim over the players time and time again... How hard is it for you to understand... The players fail that is for sure and I agree with you but managers can have a input in the outcome of games. How hard is it for you to understand that... It is like you don't like anyone on this board to have an opinion and when I use factual numbers to back them up you shrug them off. it is not always the managers fault but I just disagree with you on how he manages the Tigers.
Lets just let it go... You and I are never going to agree with each other... I hope JB finds his stuff because right now it has left him.. I am not worried and I have be showing stats on other threads on how are record compares to last year. But using certain players in certain situations is beyond maddening like anytime he uses Raburn at 2nd base... By the way i 90% of the time I will always use stats to back my arguments up.. From now on I will make sure you know that from the get go, and hopefully Jb will have a clean inning the next time he pitches...

 

[mjsb2]

A manager should never use his bullpen, or organize his lineup based on recent hot/cold streaks.

It should solely be based on who is expected to perform the best over the full course of the season.

 

[jimrice]

Has Jim done a great job.. I am so tired of everyone defending this guy.. He is a marginally above average manager. 1600-1597... And guys like you defend Jim over the players time and time again... How hard is it for you to understand... The players fail that is for sure and I agree with you but managers can have a input in the outcome of games. How hard is it for you to understand that... It is like you don't like anyone on this board to have an opinion and when I use factual numbers to back them up you shrug them off. it is not always the managers fault but I just disagree with you on how he manages the Tigers.
Lets just let it go... You and I are never going to agree with each other... I hope JB finds his stuff because right now it has left him.. I am not worried and I have be showing stats on other threads on how are record compares to last year. But using certain players in certain situations is beyond maddening like anytime he uses Raburn at 2nd base... By the way i 90% of the time I will always use stats to back my arguments up.. From now on I will make sure you know that from the get go, and hopefully Jb will have a clean inning the next time he pitches...

I don't defend Leyland. I agree that he's a slightly above average manager.

I get the numbers you posted, they are straightforward. Dotel has been better than Benoit. The example I posted, which you ignore, is that currently Laird is hitting better than Avila. Do you want the manager to go by the latest numbers, ignoring expected production? I don't. It seems you want him to based on hindsight, which I think is BS. I have a consistent opinion on this and you seem to waver based on the result.

There's nothing wrong with disagreement and back and forth. I'm assuming that if you didn't want to have this discussion, you wouldn't keep posting. What would be the point of having a discussion board where everyone has the same opinion?