Did Tuck say he's "comin'"???

[byco42]

The litany of MSU coaches from memory since Biggie Munn from memory: (1954-Present)

Daugherty
Stoltz
Rogers
Waters
Perles
Saban
Smith
Williams
Watts - (interim)
Dantonio
Tucker
Barnett - (interim)

Three coaches compiled 44 seasons. The remaining nine compiled 23. Continuity seems to be an issue here. Why did Saban leave? He tried the Irish goodbye, but that didn't work.

 

[Michchamp]

This ESPN story and quotes from Mel's attorney... ZOIKS!

Tucker's going to try to drag MSU down with him.

Tell Ishbia he should pay this settlement out. Bet he won't take their calls now. Maybe he's Too busy building his own Neverland Ranch in the middle of Bloomfield Hills

 

[Michchamp]

I'm reserving judgement on everyone involved for now, that was my point. My guess is that the truth is somewhere in the middle, that there was mutual interest to a point but he crossed the line.

I doubt we will ever know the truth, the part that is mind-blowing to me is how MSU is attempting to direct all attention to Tucker and hoping nobody will even bother to question why he wasn't suspended in February and it's working. Virtually nobody is asking why it's not an issue to try to cover this up or why it's appropriate to replace someone for sexual harassment with the guy you pushed out because he had multiple players convicted of sexual assault. That's all totally fine but we have an issue with Art Briles celebrating a win with his family?

Fucking clown world.

The ESPN article I linked to said the MSU admin didn't get the report on the incident until July. That's bad enough they slowplayed their own investigation. Still... they got the report a full two months ago, and in summer when academia is on break.

This is why they're MSU... you have to get on that shit.

 

[Michchamp]

...

Three coaches compiled 44 seasons. The remaining nine compiled 23. Continuity seems to be an issue here. Why did Saban leave? He tried the Irish goodbye, but that didn't work.

I suppose we should just hope they continue to Sparty On.

Their presence in the Big Ten really hasn't hurt us as much as Fritz Crisler may have worried about. Though according to the record I've read, Fritz took his "L" and quickly moved on once a couple other Big Ten ADs told him they'd schedule MSU regardless of what UM wanted.

Really, MSU only hurt us early on 50's-60's, but that ended once EVERYONE (not just UM) raised a stink about their slushfund.

Their run from 2008-2021 against us was mostly a self-inflicted wound. But I will concede Dantonio would have done better against us even if we didn't hire RichRod & Hoke than most of the bums on your list above.

 

[Spartanmack]

The litany of MSU coaches from memory since Biggie Munn from memory: (1954-Present)

Daugherty
Stoltz
Rogers
Waters
Perles
Saban
Smith
Williams
Watts - (interim)
Dantonio
Tucker
Barnett - (interim)

Three coaches compiled 44 seasons. The remaining nine compiled 23. Continuity seems to be an issue here. Why did Saban leave? He tried the Irish goodbye, but that didn't work.

Saban left because he wanted to be the highest paid coach on campus but they wouldn't pay him until he won something. Plus he probably felt, rightly so that it would be easier to recruit in SEC country so he took the money and bolted out of town. Maybe that has something to do with why MSU felt the pressure to pull the trigger on Tucker.

Smith was after Watts and there are two interims in there so it's really 7 for 23 years but not 7 in 23 consecutive years. Since 1954, that's just 3 more than uofm and since 2000 there there have been only 4 coaches - same as uofm over those 23 seasons. There's plenty of schools that have had more turnover than that. Unless you're comparing us to just elite programs like Alabama and Ohio State>, that's not a lot of turnover. Heck, even Notre Dame, the most storied program in college football history has had more coaches than us since 2000 (and since 1954 as well).

 

[SpartyNash]

I'm reserving judgement on everyone involved for now, that was my point. My guess is that the truth is somewhere in the middle, that there was mutual interest to a point but he crossed the line.

I doubt we will ever know the truth, the part that is mind-blowing to me is how MSU is attempting to direct all attention to Tucker and hoping nobody will even bother to question why he wasn't suspended in February and it's working. Virtually nobody is asking why it's not an issue to try to cover this up or why it's appropriate to replace someone for sexual harassment with the guy you pushed out because he had multiple players convicted of sexual assault. That's all totally fine but we have an issue with Art Briles celebrating a win with his family?

Fucking clown world.

Dantonio was not pushed out for having players committing sexual assault (they were dealt with/kicked off the team/suspended anyways). In fact, I?d argue that he wasn?t even pushed out, he just retired in February and left the program high and dry; had he not there?s not a doubt in my mind he would have been coaching in 2020 because the higher ups at MSU are a joke. The fans wanted him to kindly retire as the program sputtered/recruiting literally ceased to exist/zero notable changes were made to his coaching staff.

 

[Spartanmack]

Dantonio was not pushed out for having players committing sexual assault (they were dealt with/kicked off the team/suspended anyways). In fact, I?d argue that he wasn?t even pushed out, he just retired in February and left the program high and dry; had he not there?s not a doubt in my mind he would have been coaching in 2020 because the higher ups at MSU are a joke. The fans wanted him to kindly retire as the program sputtered/recruiting literally ceased to exist/zero notable changes were made to his coaching staff.

It was like he pulled a Willingham in 2017 and just stopped recruiting, except he didn't have the kind of brand like ND that would land you a few elite recruits just because of the name of the school. Then his decision to never hold any coaches accountable for performance on the field compounded the problem and turned a dumpster fire into a Canadian wildfire kinda disaster.

 

[bphillips4gg]

Dantonio was not pushed out for having players committing sexual assault (they were dealt with/kicked off the team/suspended anyways). In fact, I?d argue that he wasn?t even pushed out, he just retired in February and left the program high and dry; had he not there?s not a doubt in my mind he would have been coaching in 2020 because the higher ups at MSU are a joke. The fans wanted him to kindly retire as the program sputtered/recruiting literally ceased to exist/zero notable changes were made to his coaching staff.

The writing was on the wall for him as the program was circling the drain. He waited until the day his annual bonus was owed and then quit. And pushed out or not, the culture of the program he ran led to multiple sexual assault convictions for players in the last few years. I am not saying that to disparage you, I am saying that to make the point that he's not an appropriate replacement, especially considering the circumstances that lead to his appointment. Dantonio deliberately ignored behavioral red flags for recruits in order to get the most talented team possible and he lost control of the program because of it.

Asking that dude to replace Mel Tugger is like West Virginia suspending their bball coach because of a DUI and asking Bob Huggins to serve as his interim replacement. Makes no sense.

 

[Spartanmack]

The writing was on the wall for him as the program was circling the drain. He waited until the day his annual bonus was owed and then quit. And pushed out or not, the culture of the program he ran led to multiple sexual assault convictions for players in the last few years. I am not saying that to disparage you, I am saying that to make the point that he's not an appropriate replacement, especially considering the circumstances that lead to his appointment. Dantonio deliberately ignored behavioral red flags for recruits in order to get the most talented team possible and he lost control of the program because of it.

Asking that dude to replace Mel Tugger is like West Virginia suspending their bball coach because of a DUI and asking Bob Huggins to serve as his interim replacement. Makes no sense.

This is false. Unlike his uofm counterparts, Dantonio reported all cases of sexual assault to the administration and to authorities and immediately suspended or kicked players off the team. He also suspended a coach/consultant for interfering in the investigation. This was investigated by the university, law enforcement and a third party and all 3 concluded he acted in accordance with university Title IX policy. It was 2 separate instances involving 4 players. It wasn't a problem with the culture, the culture led him to report it rather than cover it up, a la uofm coaches and adminstrators with Lewan and Gibbons. The scenario you're trying to paint (without evidence) is more like if Juwan Howard got caught throwing games and they asked Chris Webber to step in as interim coach...

 

[byco42]

Smith was after Watts and there are two interims in there so it's really 7 for 23 years but not 7 in 23 consecutive years. Since 1954, that's just 3 more than uofm and since 2000 there there have been only 4 coaches - same as uofm over those 23 seasons. There's plenty of schools that have had more turnover than that. Unless you're comparing us to just elite programs like Alabama and Ohio State>, that's not a lot of turnover. Heck, even Notre Dame, the most storied program in college football history has had more coaches than us since 2000 (and since 1954 as well).

I said it was from memory. And I wasn't making any sort of comparison to any other program. Perhaps going back 70 years was not valuable anyway.

 

[tinselwolverine]

ESPN reporting Tucker suspended. Don?t have access to the audio.

 

[Michchamp]

I forgot about the sexual assault problems they had under Dantonio. I do remember about the timing of his bonus. Another dumb mistake by their AD. Just pay him the money and let him retire! WTF honor a term of a contract that makes everyone worse off?

he didn't exactly leave the program on the best terms, but I don't think they were in THAT bad shape. They were almost certainly better off than they'd been when he took over.

I looked it up... his last three seasons there they were 10-3, 7-6, 7-6. The last year was definitely worse (we blew them out & most of their losses were bad).

I assume his recruiting would've been falling off anyway because Harbaugh was bringing in better players, as was James Franklin and Urban Meyer. When Dantonio was in his prime, he wasn't competing directly against 3 other solid coaches.

Still... MSU has nobody else to fall back on right now...

 

[Spartanmack]

I said it was from memory. And I wasn't making any sort of comparison to any other program. Perhaps going back 70 years was not valuable anyway.

I know, i was just clarifying and adding a bit of context - along w/ a little friendly ribbing with the rivalry references.

 

[byco42]

he didn't exactly leave the program on the best terms, but I don't think they were in THAT bad shape. They were almost certainly better off than they'd been when he took over.

Dantonio expressed that the program was actually in decent condition when he took over. Link

 

[Michchamp]

Dantonio expressed that the program was actually in decent condition when he took over. Link

Maybe. I know recruiting rankings are notoriously subjective, but it might be helpful to see how MSU fared from (say 2005 to the present).

JLS seemed like a good guy; maybe not cuthroat enough to instill some discipline in his players though.

from the sort of cordial discussions I have with MSU fans, I recall they engage in a bit of denial when you remind them that Dantonio's best stretch 2010-2015 coincided with UM making two (2) bad hires, OSU having to fire Tressel and endure sanctions (2010-2011), and Penn State going through the JoePa/Sandusky scandal (which broke in 2011). Getting a bump in recruiting and easy wins instead of losses can do a lot for a guy.

But then on the other hand, they tell you he basically stopped recruiting (completely?) at some point in his tenure. So he was the greatest coach in the Big Ten until like 2015, and then he turned into a pumpkin. And that's the whole story...

I think Dantonio was a good-not-great coach, who had more than his share of luck on his side. And the MSU Administration failed to build on that, and botched his succession plan badly. I mean... Dantonio had a record of success to go on. Mel Tucker did not. And then Mel took a windfall bonanza of luck, landing KWIII and basically torpedoed the program.

What's a good metaphor for that? Something that seems good, but turns out to be a disaster? Maybe even a forseeable disaster?

 

[bphillips4gg]

This is false. Unlike his uofm counterparts, Dantonio reported all cases of sexual assault to the administration and to authorities and immediately suspended or kicked players off the team. He also suspended a coach/consultant for interfering in the investigation. This was investigated by the university, law enforcement and a third party and all 3 concluded he acted in accordance with university Title IX policy. It was 2 separate instances involving 4 players. It wasn't a problem with the culture, the culture led him to report it rather than cover it up, a la uofm coaches and adminstrators with Lewan and Gibbons. The scenario you're trying to paint (without evidence) is more like if Juwan Howard got caught throwing games and they asked Chris Webber to step in as interim coach...

You're a broken record with the Gibbons/Lewan schtick. The difference is the players, coach and AD from that time have all been dismissed/graduated/fired and we didn?t ask Brady Hoke to come fill in as interim for a suspended Harbaugh.

The girl in that case also did not press charges, her roommate made the report. She was advised by the police that they needed to know whether or not she intended to press charges by a certain date and they never heard from her again. There's been no evidence aside from the supposed victim's allegations that Lewan threatened her. If she had pursued charges or produced any evidence to support the threat claim then they both would have been investigated.

And you try to point to this as an example of a blue wall and how it's so different from how MSU handled things when MSU literally just sat on the same types of allegations for 10 months for their head coach and only suspended him after it leaked. You're not operating from the high ground you think you are.

 

[Michchamp]

You're a broken record with the Gibbons/Lewan schtick. The difference is the players, coach and AD from that time have all been dismissed/graduated/fired and we didn?t ask Brady Hoke to come fill in as interim for a suspended Harbaugh.

...

The other difference is he attacks the victim and types out blocks and blocks of text arguing she probably made it up when he supports the accused rapist.

When the shoe is on the other foot, he's more strident about defending the rights of rape victims than like a "Womyn's Studies" major from San Francisco.

 

[Spartanmack]

You're a broken record with the Gibbons/Lewan schtick. The difference is the players, coach and AD from that time have all been dismissed/graduated/fired and we didn?t ask Brady Hoke to come fill in as interim for a suspended Harbaugh.

The girl in that case also did not press charges, her roommate made the report. She was advised by the police that they needed to know whether or not she intended to press charges by a certain date and they never heard from her again. There's been no evidence aside from the supposed victim's allegations that Lewan threatened her. If she had pursued charges or produced any evidence to support the threat claim then they both would have been investigated.

And you try to point to this as an example of a blue wall and how it's so different from how MSU handled things when MSU literally just sat on the same types of allegations for 10 months for their head coach and only suspended him after it leaked. You're not operating from the high ground you think you are.

Broken record or not, it's actually true - your kicker raped a girl and your left tackle threatened to rape her for reporting it and none of this came out despite being investigated until your kicker graduated. The difference is not that those players and coaches are gone - they should have been gone way sooner for covering it up. Dantonio did the opposite. That's the difference.

Interesting regarding Lewan, the story on here used to be he made the threats "thinking out loud" in the locker room, which was then leaked and therefore, because he didn't threaten her directly it was no big deal.

And wrong again, there was and perhaps still is a blue wall around the program aided and abetted by the administration. You're trying to rewrite the history of the Dantonio incident to make it look like this is a pattern with the football program. It's you who is the hypocrite trying to claim the high ground to disparage all things MSU. I'm just calling you out for it, making sure you know you live in a glass house.

 

[Spartanmack]

The other difference is he attacks the victim and types out blocks and blocks of text arguing she probably made it up when he supports the accused rapist.

When the shoe is on the other foot, he's more strident about defending the rights of rape victims than like a "Womyn's Studies" major from San Francisco.

show me one example of me "attacking the victim" and "supporting the accused rapist." I'll wait.

 

[bphillips4gg]

The other difference is he attacks the victim and types out blocks and blocks of text arguing she probably made it up when he supports the accused rapist.

When the shoe is on the other foot, he's more strident about defending the rights of rape victims than like a "Womyn's Studies" major from San Francisco.

I am not defending anyone. In either situation. I'm simply pointing out that there's nothing more than he said/she said in both cases and objectively deciding which side is telling the truth based on the information that's publicly available is impossible.

I know victims of both rape and being falsely accused of rape. Both scenarios ruin lives equally. I'm not willing to pass judgements on anyone until I hear all the facts.

What I cannot stand is seeing these assholes who have been proven to be scumbags continuing to be given multi-million dollar gigs in high-profile positions. Especially when it gives them access to the people they prey on. E.g. how is Urban Meyer employable by Fox? How was he employable by Jacksonville? Even Ohio State? I'm not saying that he shouldn't be allowed to have a job, but maybe covering for a wife-beater and coercing the victim should disqualify him from a role leading young men.