Did Tuck say he's "comin'"???

[Michchamp]

I am not defending anyone. In either situation. I'm simply pointing out that there's nothing more than he said/she said in both cases and objectively deciding which side is telling the truth based on the information that's publicly available is impossible.

I know victims of both rape and being falsely accused of rape. Both scenarios ruin lives equally. I'm not willing to pass judgements on anyone until I hear all the facts.

What I cannot stand is seeing these assholes who have been proven to be scumbags continuing to be given multi-million dollar gigs in high-profile positions. Especially when it gives them access to the people they prey on. E.g. how is Urban Meyer employable by Fox? How was he employable by Jacksonville? Even Ohio State? I'm not saying that he shouldn't be allowed to have a job, but maybe covering for a wife-beater and coercing the victim should disqualify him from a role leading young men.

I was referring to spartamack, not you

 

[bphillips4gg]

Broken record or not, it's actually true - your kicker raped a girl and your left tackle threatened to rape her for reporting it and none of this came out despite being investigated until your kicker graduated. The difference is not that those players and coaches are gone - they should have been gone way sooner for covering it up. Dantonio did the opposite. That's the difference.

Interesting regarding Lewan, the story on here used to be he made the threats "thinking out loud" in the locker room, which was then leaked and therefore, because he didn't threaten her directly it was no big deal.

And wrong again, there was and perhaps still is a blue wall around the program aided and abetted by the administration. You're trying to rewrite the history of the Dantonio incident to make it look like this is a pattern with the football program. It's you who is the hypocrite trying to claim the high ground to disparage all things MSU. I'm just calling you out for it, making sure you know you live in a glass house.

No, what you are doing is taking an accusation and stating it as a fact. It is a fact that the "victims" friend reported a rape, a rape kit was taken and Gibbons was questioned. AAPD asked the girl if she wanted to pursue charges, she said she didn?t know, and they told her they would need to know within a month and she never reached out to press charges.

I am not saying that Gibbons did or did not rape the girl, I'm saying that she was not willing to press charges so nobody can reasonably say that it occurred.

We just watched this situation unfold last year. A false accusation ruined Matt Araiza's life. He was going to be on the Bills roster, making at least $750k last season. He was cleared on the charges, but not until he had lost his job and he still hasn't gotten another opportunity.

THAT'S why your assertion that Gibbons undeniably did it is dangerous, especially when the supposed victim wasn't willing to follow through. Your only "evidence" is that he played for Michigan therefore he's not entitled to the benefit of the doubt. You have no more information than anyone else and yet you state that he's guilty as if it's a fact. I certainly hope you're never on the receiving end of a false accusation, but maybe take minute to consider why it's "innocent until proven guilty" and we don't just throw alleged witches into the river tied to a rock anymore.

 

[bphillips4gg]

I was referring to spartamack, not you

I am aware, just getting in front of the response which he of course made before I was done posting. If there's any evidence to support either of his claims then I'll co-sign the letters asking Michigan to remove both players from their records.

Until then, Mark Dantonio raped me while I was a freshman At Cincinnati in 2004.

He can't defend him anymore because my accusation is undeniable proof of the crime, right?

 

[Michchamp]

I just went back and found the original thread where we learned about Gibbons.

It was a real doozy... it even featured a former UM doctor who was leading a crusade against the UM administration over it show up, and some guy claiming to be a former prosecutor show up attacking HIM, and then anybody else who took issue with his tone. And we had to lock it.

the rape incident occurred during RR's tenure (2009), and it sounds like once the girl declined to press charges, the university had the excuse they needed to do nothing.

However They DID kick Gibbons out of the dorm at the time. and then expelled him eventually but he was a grad student by then (2013), so he has a degree from UM.

I don't expect UM would sit on their hands again like that if it occurred tomorrow. I think a lot has changed since then.

 

[Michchamp]

Oh well... yeah. Black eye for UM and all. No sense denying it, and looking back, most of us took it seriously at the time as well.

I'm just glad we cleaned up and did the right thing eventually there & UM is not in the position MSU is in still today! :cheers:

 

[bphillips4gg]

In that case sign me up to strike them from records. I honestly don't remember it, it was 14 years ago and I had a newborn and 2 year old to concern myself with in 2009. I wasn't following that closely, in part because of life circumstances and also because Rich Rod.

And, as you and I have already mentioned, different times and people from top to bottom.

 

[Spartanmack]

No, what you are doing is taking an accusation and stating it as a fact. It is a fact that the "victims" friend reported a rape, a rape kit was taken and Gibbons was questioned. AAPD asked the girl if she wanted to pursue charges, she said she didn?t know, and they told her they would need to know within a month and she never reached out to press charges.

I am not saying that Gibbons did or did not rape the girl, I'm saying that she was not willing to press charges so nobody can reasonably say that it occurred.

We just watched this situation unfold last year. A false accusation ruined Matt Araiza's life. He was going to be on the Bills roster, making at least $750k last season. He was cleared on the charges, but not until he had lost his job and he still hasn't gotten another opportunity.

THAT'S why your assertion that Gibbons undeniably did it is dangerous, especially when the supposed victim wasn't willing to follow through. Your only "evidence" is that he played for Michigan therefore he's not entitled to the benefit of the doubt. You have no more information than anyone else and yet you state that he's guilty as if it's a fact. I certainly hope you're never on the receiving end of a false accusation, but maybe take minute to consider why it's "innocent until proven guilty" and we don't just throw alleged witches into the river tied to a rock anymore.

Probably because she was weighing the consequences of reporting it and getting raped a second time by a 330lb lineman or not reporting it.

And I never said it was undeniable that Gibbons did it so quit moving the goal posts. What i said, and is irrefutable fact is it was covered up for 2 years adn the University, (which saw fit to punish him so that tells you something about the likelihood of his guilt) didn't do it until after his eligibility was up and he was already leaving campus and the program.

What is also undeniable is Dantonio did everything by the book - immediately reporting it and suspending the players involved and a coach for interfering. It's sad that people like you and MC are so butthurt that you can't acknowledge simple facts and give credit where credit is due especially when your program was guilty of an egregious cover up for YEARS.

And cry me a river - a false accusation also ended Adrian Payne's career. A couple years later he ended up being murdered trying to help a family member. Something that probably never happens if he's still in the NBA. And everyone on this board refers to him as a rapist and uses that case to try to impugn Izzo, MSU, etc despite the girl acknowledging during the investigation at the time that she had given consent and did not press charges.

 

[Spartanmack]

Maybe. I know recruiting rankings are notoriously subjective, but it might be helpful to see how MSU fared from (say 2005 to the present).

JLS seemed like a good guy; maybe not cuthroat enough to instill some discipline in his players though.

from the sort of cordial discussions I have with MSU fans, I recall they engage in a bit of denial when you remind them that Dantonio's best stretch 2010-2015 coincided with UM making two (2) bad hires, OSU having to fire Tressel and endure sanctions (2010-2011), and Penn State going through the JoePa/Sandusky scandal (which broke in 2011). Getting a bump in recruiting and easy wins instead of losses can do a lot for a guy.

But then on the other hand, they tell you he basically stopped recruiting (completely?) at some point in his tenure. So he was the greatest coach in the Big Ten until like 2015, and then he turned into a pumpkin. And that's the whole story...

I think Dantonio was a good-not-great coach, who had more than his share of luck on his side. And the MSU Administration failed to build on that, and botched his succession plan badly. I mean... Dantonio had a record of success to go on. Mel Tucker did not. And then Mel took a windfall bonanza of luck, landing KWIII and basically torpedoed the program.

What's a good metaphor for that? Something that seems good, but turns out to be a disaster? Maybe even a forseeable disaster?

LOL, Urban Meyer took over OSU in 2012 and immediately went undefeated and finishing 3rd in the country - he only beat Dantonio's Spartans by a point and that was thanks to Braxton Miller being ruled down when he clearly fumbled for a Spartan scoop 6. The next year he lost only 2 games, one of them the conference championship game to guess who (I bet even you can figure it out), 2014 he lost one game and won the first playoff Championship, the year after that, 2015 he went 12-1, guess who beat him late in the season...

In his first 4 seasons, Meyer lost a total of 4 games, only 2 of them in the B1G, both of those to Dantonio both when OSU was ranked 2nd or 3rd in the country. But in your brilliant mind, those are easy wins. It's not like they were against Ryan Day after all, LOLOLOLOLOL...

Your attempts at revisionist history are so pathetic and so easily proven wrong. You know nothing about college football.

Unlike uofm and harbaugh, Meyer didn't have to wait for his rivals to take a dump and pad his schedule with patsy's to get back to winning.

It took Harbaugh 7 years to have as many wins against OSU as Urban Meyer had - and that's only because Meyer is no longer at OSU.

The fact of the matter is, it's uofm that only has success when it's rivals are bad. Since 2008, uofm has only beaten MSU when MSU is .500 or worse. MSU has beaten ranked uofm teams (as rare as they've been ranked) plenty of times. You want to wipe out the Hoke/Rich Rod era but count the Bobby Williams and JLS era. Now after two anomalous wins against poorly coached OSU teams in the post Meyer era and suddenly you think you're the class of the conference. That's cute, you must watch a lot of college football.

 

[Spartanmack]

LOLOLOL, this is too funny - since 2008 (the post Williams, JLS era) MSU is 10-5 against uofm. Eight of those michigan teams were ranked, none of the 5 MSU teams that uofm beat were even close to ranked. So there goes the "MSU only beats us when we're not good" claim - not only is it blown away but it's clear that it's indisputably the opposite.

And again, in the previous post I already debunked the OSU part of that claim but please MC, with your vast knowledge of college football, tell us more about how it's MSU that only has success when their rivals are down.

You're a clown.

 

[Michchamp]

LOLOLOL, this is too funny - since 2008 (the post Williams, JLS era) MSU is 10-5 against uofm. Eight of those michigan teams were ranked, none of the 5 MSU teams that uofm beat were even close to ranked. So there goes the "MSU only beats us when we're not good" claim - not only is it blown away but it's clear that it's indisputably the opposite.

And again, in the previous post I already debunked the OSU part of that claim but please MC, with your vast knowledge of college football, tell us more about how it's MSU that only has success when their rivals are down.

You're a clown.

You're making up your own things to argue against now, so I really don't see any point in responding to you ( as usual)

Just try not to attack the credibility of any rape victims on your way home, eh? and try to be a better person.

 

[Michchamp]

I said it was from memory. And I wasn't making any sort of comparison to any other program. Perhaps going back 70 years was not valuable anyway.

I was curious so I sketched it out.

Going back to 1950, there have been eight (8) Michigan HCs, and eleven (11) Spartan HCs, counting Watts after Bobby Williams was fired and not counting Barnett since Tucker hasn't technically been fired yet.

But MSU definitely had a lot more turmoil after Duffy Daughtery left, and again after Saban left. They really only had three coaches with tenures over 5 seasons during that time. We had 5.

UM's looks a lot more stable. Really the only period of turmoil was the RR/Hoke tenures. If Gary Moeller didn't get fired, things may have turned out with even more stability, but that incident really didn't result in much turnover; in fact you could almost consider the Schembechler - Moeller - Carr years as one regime, given the continuity in assistants. Not one Michigan coach from 1969 to 2007 was fired for performance reasons

 

[Spartanmack]

I was curious so I sketched it out.

Going back to 1950, there have been eight (8) Michigan HCs, and eleven (11) Spartan HCs, counting Watts after Bobby Williams was fired and not counting Barnett since Tucker hasn't technically been fired yet.

But MSU definitely had a lot more turmoil after Duffy Daughtery left, and again after Saban left. They really only had three coaches with tenures over 5 seasons during that time. We had 5.

UM's looks a lot more stable. Really the only period of turmoil was the RR/Hoke tenures. If Gary Moeller didn't get fired, things may have turned out with even more stability, but that incident really didn't result in much turnover; in fact you could almost consider the Schembechler - Moeller - Carr years as one regime, given the continuity in assistants. Not one Michigan coach from 1969 to 2007 was fired for performance reasons

Lolololol - you really don?t know how stupid the things you post are, do you?

 

[Spartanmack]

You're making up your own things to argue against now, so I really don't see any point in responding to you ( as usual)

Just try not to attack the credibility of any rape victims on your way home, eh? and try to be a better person.

Clearly the truth hurts, but this is weak even for you.

Translation, ?your easily verifiable and indisputable facts completely disprove my made up narrative Spartanmack so I?m going to accuse you of doing what I do (making up arguments I wish you made then arguing against them), then make up more lies about what you?ve said to accuse of being a bad person.?

LOLOLOL, look at you with your "believe all women" shtick and anyone who doesn't is "attacking rape victims." You must be a really good lawyer - what year of law school did they teach you that?

So again, try to find any facts to support your claims about MSU and uofm, just once in your life, provide some proof or own up to the lies and stupidity.

 

[byco42]

I went to confession yesterday. I go usually 2x a month, sometimes more than that. I am reminded what a broken person I am and that no one can remain virtuous on their own.

Here's a quote from a book that sold more copies and been translated into more languages than any other text aside from the Bible itself.

"Wherefore, if you see another sin openly or commit a serious crime, do not consider yourself better, for you do not know how long you can remain good. All men are frail, but you must admit that none are more frail than yourself."

I hope and pray that something good evolves for Mel Tucker and his family as well as Brenda Tracy after this ordeal recedes. We are all fortunate to not be embroiled in our own for the public to judge.

 

[Michchamp]

I went to confession yesterday. I go usually 2x a month, sometimes more than that. I am reminded what a broken person I am and that no one can remain virtuous on their own.

Here's a quote from a book that sold more copies and been translated into more languages than any other text aside from the Bible itself.

"Wherefore, if you see another sin openly or commit a serious crime, do not consider yourself better, for you do not know how long you can remain good. All men are frail, but you must admit that none are more frail than yourself."

I hope and pray that something good evolves for Mel Tucker and his family as well as Brenda Tracy after this ordeal recedes. We are all fortunate to not be embroiled in our own for the public to judge.

Can we still call out awful behavior?

 

[byco42]

Can we still call out awful behavior?

To me, it depends on why.

 

[Michchamp]

To me, it depends on why.

To generate content and interesting discussions on our message board and provide an occasional - sometimes not so occasional - distraction from all the crap I have to do for a paycheck.

 

[tinselwolverine]

To generate content and interesting discussions on our message board and provide an occasional - sometimes not so occasional - distraction from all the crap I have to do for a paycheck.

Well, also, of course, to troll our Spartan friends.

Obviously, only in the most friendliest and collegial of ways.

 

[byco42]

I just see this situation differently, I guess. One thing to talk smack about on-the-field stuff and in-tunnel festivities. This ain't that. JMHO.

 

[Spartanmack]

The other difference is he attacks the victim and types out blocks and blocks of text arguing she probably made it up when he supports the accused rapist.

When the shoe is on the other foot, he's more strident about defending the rights of rape victims than like a "Womyn's Studies" major from San Francisco.

Are you referring to this post where I said several times whether she's legit or a grifter, it doesn't excuse what Tucker did when you say I attack the victim and support the accused rapist?

The more I read about this, the more I realize what an idiot Tucker is. I have my doubts about Brenda Tracy - she doesn't seem all that credible, like a low rent Christine Blasey Ford. If it was possible to prove her late 90s claim one way or the other, I'd bet the other. But that's not a defense of Tucker - if she is a fraud and a grifter, he's even dumber for serving himself up on a silver platter to her.

Apparently, according to Tucker, she was seeking a monthly allowance to be his girlfriend and of course, according to Tucker their telephonic dalliances were co nsensual. Tucker also said "...I am not proud of my judgement and I am having difficulty forgiving myself for getting into this situation, but I did not engage in misconduct by any definition."

Uh, yeah ya did Mel - at a minimum you betrayed and humiliated your wife of 20+ years and 2 school aged kids going behind their backs negotiating a deal for your side piece and jerking off on the phone with her. That's textbook misconduct by just about anyone's standards.

And that's the minimum harm you've caused. It's certainly possible that Tracy is a survivor and if that is the case, and she wasn't going along with the phone sex thing then Tucker's an idiot and even bigger scumbag. But here's what I don't get - if she didn't consent or participate in the flirting, how did it get to the point where he was masturbating on the phone without her consent? Why didn't she just hang up the phone and block him?

Before anyone freaks out that i'm defending Tucker, I'm not. Whether Tracy is legitimate or a fraud/grifter and whether she participated or Tucker did this without consent, he's an idiot and a bad guy. There isn't a scenario in this where Tucker doesn't look bad.

I'm really going after Tracy and sticking my neck out to defend Tucker here. Good try. You should try to get a job at MSNBC - you're like Medhi Hassan or Chris Hayes (the female Rachel Maddow), only dumber...

Also, Tucker isn't accused of rape. Did they not teach you the difference between sexual harrassment and rape in law school?