Iglasias fight

[Rebbiv]

So if a quarterback has a bad rating, is it more on the routes being run, players dropping passes, or is it an indication of the QB not being very good? Ultimately, does anyone really accept responsibility?

These guys are pitchers, they are the ones responsible for shaking the catcher off if they don't like the location, pitch type, etc... They are the ones who perfect their strengths and shore up weaknesses. Personally, it's silly to not put the blame on these guys and just say the catcher isn't doing his job.

I can tell you watching Ian Krol last night, and some of these guys just implode because their pitches don't have any bite on them, my first thought wasn't, "Shit, McCann sucks, he's not calling the right stuff." It was watching these beach balls being thrown to the batter.

I don't feel your football analogy fits in this situation.

There are some pitchers, who tend not to want to "overthink" while pitching. They like to see the sign and throw away. If you ask a pitcher who threw perfect game or no hitter, they will tell you they were "in synch" with their catchers and that they rarely had to shake their catcher off.

In this case, certainly the pitcher has to have "the stuff" to pull it off. Does this take away the responsibility from the pitcher? Absolutely not.

Additionally, statistics are a historical accounting of what happened. Don't isolate on one pitcher (i.e. Krol). It is the volume (sample size) you need to observe. Avila doesn't make a bad pitcher good. McCann doesn't make a good pitcher bad. Yet, as I pointed out, almost all the pitchers had a elevated slugging percentage with McCann catching. Why is that?

1. Setting up too early?
2. Calling too many fastballs?


Additionally, when DET was 23-14 and their pitchers were doing well (4.00 Runs Per Game), it was Avila getting the primary starts. They have since gone 31-43 (worst in the AL), with McCann primarily getting the starts (5.23 Runs Per Game). Even at equal amount of games, DET was 16-21 with 5.65 Runs Per Game after that start, with McCann pretty much the lone starting catcher.

This isn't a "coincidence". Not all of the pitchers started to suck at the same time for no apparent reason. I don't buy it.

We are all Tigers' fans and want what is best for the Tigers. This season is lost, so why not play McCann?

However, unless you or anyone else can so me evidential proof to the contrary, I will maintain at current state, McCann is destined to become a backup or out of the game in 5 years. Could I be wrong? Absolutely. However historical study of statistics, including minor league numbers, supports my claim more than it supports the opposite.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Can't argue with sense..

 

[dubbsco]

Well I think we both agree in a very backwards and roundabout way. This season is lost, and McCann does seem to have some good potential, so he needs to play every day.

Mitch, the rookie comment was directed to Rebbiv about how a lot of rookies have their best year in year one, which I'm not sure is accurate.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Well I think we both agree in a very backwards and roundabout way. This season is lost, and McCann does seem to have some good potential, so he needs to play every day.

Mitch, the rookie comment was directed to Rebbiv about how a lot of rookies have their best year in year one, which I'm not sure is accurate.

Fair enough.

 

[tomdalton22]

On a positive note regarding McCann....his deficiencies are pretty much all the mental part of catching. Those things are the type of things that can be taught. If he is calling a bad game it is on the coaching staff as much as it is on him. I would think pitch framing is another "art" that can be improved upon.

 

[hellifino]

How very objective of you.

Once I realized that the Tigers were showcasing Avila at 1st base,I got a lot better. Good luck with the showcasing.No one wants a 1st basemen that hits .175,yet alone a catcher with bad knees who hits .175 or a D.H. that hits .175

 

[Thumb]

On a positive note regarding McCann....his deficiencies are pretty much all the mental part of catching. Those things are the type of things that can be taught. If he is calling a bad game it is on the coaching staff as much as it is on him. I would think pitch framing is another "art" that can be improved upon.

I tend to agree he can get better at framing, setting up, and pitch calling. the problem is the MLB is not the best place to learn that, the big dance is not well suited for OJT. He should have been taught that in the minors, but then again Holaday was bad at setting up as well, who the hell do we have instructing our young players?

 

[kingofdetroit57]

On a positive note regarding McCann....his deficiencies are pretty much all the mental part of catching. Those things are the type of things that can be taught. If he is calling a bad game it is on the coaching staff as much as it is on him. I would think pitch framing is another "art" that can be improved upon.

I think that Ausmus said he was going to start pushing him to do his own scouting the rest of the year in order to become more independent when calling games.

 

[manchild98]

The framing thing scares me a bit. Is he a recently converted catcher? Because if he's not and has been player catcher for years and now he's 25 years old then he should already be good at it.

 

[Rebbiv]

Well I think we both agree in a very backwards and roundabout way. This season is lost, and McCann does seem to have some good potential, so he needs to play every day.

Mitch, the rookie comment was directed to Rebbiv about how a lot of rookies have their best year in year one, which I'm not sure is accurate.

In no particular order.

Bob Hamelin

Evan Longoria

Jerome Walton

Eric Hinske

Steve Sax

Chris Coghlan

**Geovany Soto

Bobby Crosby

Angel Berroa

Pat Listach

Ron Kittle

Joe Charboneau


Tigers

Matt Nokes

Darnell Coles

Rick Peters

Milt Cuyler

Deivi Cruz


I am sure I could go on. But this is a good start.

 

[JackCade]

Here's my stats...

Avila is an automatic out in the lineup (WRONG OB% of .350 career, dipped lately)
Avila is lazy behind the plate and shows no leadership (Lazy, how so? As for leadership, you have NO WAY Of knowing that unless you are on the team or in the organization.)
Saying Avila has been working longer with the pitchers is a farce. only Verlander and Al Al has been around long enough (McCann made the back up this season, right? So, everyone who was with the team last year has more time with Avila including Sanchez, Rondon, etc.)
Only reason he's in the lineup is because Brad doesn't have the balls to sit him. (What? Why would it take balls to sit him, because of his dad? That is so ****ing stupid that it is not worth discussing.)

McCann is young, a decent hitter, with a good arm and getting better behind the plate framing. (I like him too, but his plate framing needs a lot of work.)


Even his Dad didn't want the Tigers to draft his son,why? cause he Knows MLB talent (Avila is a legit MLB catcher. In one post you suggest that Avila's dad is why he has a contract and then say his dad doesn't think he is a real MLBer. Pick one. Avila is sliding, and if this keeps up, he might end up as a back up. Injuries are bringing him down.)

Almost every thing you said is not true.

 

[JackCade]

I tend to agree he can get better at framing, setting up, and pitch calling. the problem is the MLB is not the best place to learn that, the big dance is not well suited for OJT. He should have been taught that in the minors, but then again Holaday was bad at setting up as well, who the hell do we have instructing our young players?

The show is where you get to when you are good enough to contribute to a MLB team.
Full Stop.

Lots, most, rookies have a LOT to learn on the job after the get to the bigs. Heck, most vets are learning as they age how to continue to compete.

So, yeah, you are wrong.

 

[Thumb]

The show is where you get to when you are good enough to contribute to a MLB team.
Full Stop.

Lots, most, rookies have a LOT to learn on the job after the get to the bigs. Heck, most vets are learning as they age how to continue to compete.

So, yeah, you are wrong.

I didn't say rookies don't have a lot to learn after coming up to the major leagues, just that something as important for a catcher as what is being discussed should have been learned already, and teaching him how to do it while playing a season will cost us runs.

It would be silly for a club to bring up a rookie pitcher and trying to teach him to throw a curveball while expecting him to contribute to the ballclub, and it's just as silly to assume McCann will be fine learning as he goes, because we can already see the impact.

So, yeah, you didn't correctly understand the context of my post.

At least you learned to curb the insults this time, kudos.

 

[biggunsbob]

And it's funny you bring of that McCann is a rookie yet Avila had a good rookie year and never hit the same. So why would McCann improve?

Alex had a pretty underwhelming season in 2010.. 294 at bats in 334 plate appearances..
.228/.316 /.340 /.656 The team went 81-81.. He improved and was a all-star in 2011 his best season.. His stats are slipping ever
since.. I wonder in the 81-81 season if Alex was learning a tad on the job.. Fact The most games he has played was in 2011 and and that was 141 games. He has not come close since then... Hopefully we can platoon next year..

2009 he played in only 29 games..

 

[Mitchrapp]

Alex had a pretty underwhelming season in 2010.. 294 at bats in 334 plate appearances..
.228/.316 /.340 /.656 The team went 81-81.. He improved and was a all-star in 2011 his best season.. His stats are slipping ever
since.. I wonder in the 81-81 season if Alex was learning a tad on the job.. Fact The most games he has played was in 2011 and and that was 141 games. He has not come close since then... Hopefully we can platoon next year..

2009 he played in only 29 games..

Yeah I got that rookie year mixed up. Thank you.

 

[biggunsbob]

It will be interesting to see if they bring back Alex hopefully his legs will be fully healed by spring training..

 

[Rebbiv]

Alex had a pretty underwhelming season in 2010.. 294 at bats in 334 plate appearances..
.228/.316 /.340 /.656 The team went 81-81.. He improved and was a all-star in 2011 his best season.. His stats are slipping ever
since.. I wonder in the 81-81 season if Alex was learning a tad on the job.. Fact The most games he has played was in 2011 and and that was 141 games. He has not come close since then... Hopefully we can platoon next year..

2009 he played in only 29 games..

Let's just state right now that vast majority of catchers do not come close to 135 games in a season.

MLB Catchers with at least 135 games started:

2014 = 1 (Perez)
2013 = 0
2012 = 1 (Montero)
2011 = 0 (Avila started a few games as DH)
2010 = 0
2009 = 1 (Molina)
2008 = 4 (Kendall, Martin, Suzuki, Mauer)
2007 = 1 (Martin)
2006 = 1 (Kendall)
2005 = 2 (Kendall, V. Martinez)

MLB Catchers with more than 121 games started, 75% (15th most games started as catcher, assumed median):

2014 = 4 (103 games)
2013 = 4 (102 games)
2012 = 4 (95 games)
2011 = 6 (106 games)
2010 = 3 (96 games)
2009 = 7 (100 games)
2008 = 8 (105 games)
2007 = 6 (111 games)
2006 = 6 (111 games)
2005 = 7 (112 games)

In 10 seasons, Yadier Molina topped 135 Games Started as C just once. He topped 121 games started 5 times, or half of the 10 seasons. And all of those were from 2009-2013.

In his career as a MLB catcher (over 20 seasons), Pudge Rodriguez topped 135 games 4 times and more than 121 games 7 times.

Expecting Avila or any other starting catcher to play in more than 121 games (75%) is expecting to have a top 20% catcher, for that year. And if people will remember, Avila was toast come playoff time in 2011 because he was overused (141 games) by Leyland. The median for MLB starting catchers is only about 100-105 Games Started per year. So what is wrong with just 121 or 122 games?

Why is that most starting catchers don't start more games? Because catchers get hurt. Whether your name in Alex Avila, Buster Posey or Yadier Molina, you get hurt. Foul ball, players crashing into you at the plate (rule change), etc, etc. Additionally, they wear down over the season.

I will also point out that the vast majority of MLB catchers are slow runners. And if they aren't now, after another 5 years of squatting it will happen.

Next...

In 2010, DET was 48-38 at the break on 11 July. The Tigers gave up 4.54 runs per game. Maggs was lost to a season ending injury on 24 July, and they finished 33-43. They gave up 4.64 runs per game after the break, well within margin of error. The record of 2010 had nothing to do with Avila. It had to do with losing Maggs for the year.


Record with Avila Starting at C


2010 = 41-43 (84) .488 WPCT

2011 = 78-52 (130) .600 WPCT
2012 = 60-47 (107) .561 WPCT
2013 = 61-35 (96) .635 WPCT
2014 = 67-49 (116) .578 WPCT

2015 = 16-16 .500 WPCT

Beginning with rookie year = 323-242 .572 WPCT

2011-2014 = 266-183 .592 WPCT

Record without Avila as starting C


2010 = 40-38 .513 WPCT (Laird)

2011 = 17-15 .531 WPCT (V. Martinez)
2012 = 28-27 .509 WPCT (Laird)
2013 = 32-34 .485 WPCT (Pena)2014 = 23-23 .500 WPCT (Holaday)

2015 = 38-42 .475 WPCT (McCann 33-36 .478 WPCT)Beginning with rookie year = 178-179 .499 WPCT

2011-2014 = 100-99 .503 WPCT

 

[dale675]

In no particular order.
Tigers

Matt Nokes

Darnell Coles

Rick Peters

Milt Cuyler

Deivi Cruz


I am sure I could go on. But this is a good start.

Don't forget Brennan Boesch. The way he was crushing lefties the first half of his rookie campaign was good enough to get anyone giddy.

 

[dale675]

Fact The most games he has played was in 2011 and and that was 141 games. He has not come close since then...

In 2011 he played in 141 games and we won the division by 15 games.

Anyone remember how beat up and hobbled he was in the playoffs?

He was 3 for 41. 2 walks 16K's. .073/.146/.263

Coming off the best season of his career. But hey, he played in 141 games.


Edit: ^Good info, Reb. Didn't see your post til after I made mine.

 

[Rebbiv]

http://www.blessyouboys.com/2015/8/11/9129295/detroit-tigers-matt-boyd-changeup-royals-johnny-cueto

Great read on how Avila effected Boyd last night.