Lions draft grades

[mhughes0021]

How about the third best QB or fifth best Punter? I didn't realize the 2nd best or 5th best DE/DT is better than the 9th best lineman?

You didn't? So if the first 22 picks in the draft were wr and its our turn....you re saying you didn't realize the 23rd best wr probably isnt as good as anyone else in the draft? Value....you guys are proving to have no concept of what it is....

 

[mhughes0021]

Your argument fails because it assumes Millen had a clue what he was doing. I think his track record shows he was about as ignorant as you or me.

Your opinion that anyone was a reach is ignorant. It's uninformed by anyone with the authority to speak on the matter.

When Millen made his picks, they were for the most part uninformed too, and that shows. You can't argue Millen would have been successful if he was ignorant too.

I've come out and said we had a good draft to fullfill need. But you guys have to be crazy to think we got good value as well. ....im sorry i just won't see it until the run game is fixed, stafford has protection, and abdullah is a feature guy.


But. ...im one of those CRAZY people that think production actually matters.

 

[inkfreq]

You didn't? So if the first 22 picks in the draft were wr and its our turn....you re saying you didn't realize the 23rd best wr probably isnt as good as anyone else in the draft? Value....you guys are proving to have no concept of what it is....

Value? Maybe that would be landing a starter, who leads your team in scoring for something like 22 years?

A guy like Jason Hanson maybe? A guy who people said was a terrible pick because you don't pick kickers in the 2nd round?

I think before you argue "value" you need to be able to define what that word means, and then quantify it with results. You have no results yet, and haven't been able to define the word. It's ridiculous to argue value when you can't put a meaning to the phrase.

 

[inkfreq]

I've come out and said we had a good draft to fullfill need. But you guys have to be crazy to think we got good value as well. ....im sorry i just won't see it until the run game is fixed, stafford has protection, and abdullah is a feature guy.


But. ...im one of those CRAZY people that think production actually matters.

But you haven't argued, until these statements, that you haven't seen it yet, or that it could be good but they need to prove it.

You argued that picks were a reach, based on projections you read from uninformed people.

That's the basis of my statement that the opinion is ignorant. It's an opinion based on half information or completely uninformed opinions.

For all we know, 32 teams were completely shocked that Tomlinson went that late.. we have no idea how actual NFL people viewed him just because some writers viewed him a certain way.

 

[mhughes0021]

But you haven't argued, until these statements, that you haven't seen it yet, or that it could be good but they need to prove it.

You argued that picks were a reach, based on projections you read from uninformed people.

That's the basis of my statement that the opinion is ignorant. It's an opinion based on half information or completely uninformed opinions.

For all we know, 32 teams were completely shocked that Tomlinson went that late.. we have no idea how actual NFL people viewed him just because some writers viewed him a certain way.

Because i take into account position. How many guards were drafted in rd 1 last year? None...

You mention the one the year before. ...kyle long. Guess who the 2nd guard was drafted that year. 3rd rd...warford...

Average rd drafted for starting guards in the league? 3.5

So. ....my expectation now is....and it's a very good one.....tomlinson better be as good as long or it was a reach. Thats fair....why? Cause thats what VALUE means....

 

[mhughes0021]

And millen jr will be the poster child for gms failing at high rd rbs if abdullah does nt pan out. Another position with very little value in high rounds.

 

[inkfreq]

Because i take into account position. How many guards were drafted in rd 1 last year? None...

You mention the one the year before. ...kyle long. Guess who the 2nd guard was drafted that year. 3rd rd...warford...

Average rd drafted for starting guards in the league? 3.5

So. ....my expectation now is....and it's a very good one.....tomlinson better be as good as long or it was a reach. Thats fair....why? Cause thats what VALUE means....

So by that argument, any running back taken in the 7th round or later should be as good as Priest Holmes or Arian Foster?

Any QB taken in round 6 should be as good as Tom Brady?

I'm sorry dude, your arguments to this don't make a lick of sense. You're playing armchair GM calling out picks for your perceived "value" and you know it, and now you're trying to circle around it to be right.

 

[atxlion82]

Because i take into account position. How many guards were drafted in rd 1 last year? None...

You mention the one the year before. ...kyle long. Guess who the 2nd guard was drafted that year. 3rd rd...warford...

Average rd drafted for starting guards in the league? 3.5

So. ....my expectation now is....and it's a very good one.....tomlinson better be as good as long or it was a reach. Thats fair....why? Cause thats what VALUE means....

2013 there were 2 guards drafted top 10 and 4 in their first round. Sometimes you amaze me. They past few years you complain that we were drafting bpa. Now we get bpa at a position of need and you still complain. Same thing every year. If we don't select "your guy" Mayhew failed.

 

[mhughes0021]

So by that argument, any running back taken in the 7th round or later should be as good as Priest Holmes or Arian Foster?

Any QB taken in round 6 should be as good as Tom Brady?

I'm sorry dude, your arguments to this don't make a lick of sense. You're playing armchair GM calling out picks for your perceived "value" and you know it, and now you're trying to circle around it to be right.

Lol and you say i cherry pick stuff!.....really....the 1 qb that has done squat from the 6th round? Thats your example. And your late round rb examples just strengthen my point that you don't need to select high rd rbs if you have a solid oline. You pick a guard in rd 1...he better be a fucking stud or he wasnt worth it. As tony pointed out...ppl are comparing him to warford. WE GOT WARFORD IN THE 3RD ROUND. thats great value! Were all grown men.....either you guys just like to go against everything i say and are pretending to play dumb. Or you truly have no idea what value means and what I'm referring to.

 

[mhughes0021]

2013 there were 2 guards drafted top 10 and 4 in their first round. Sometimes you amaze me. They past few years you complain that we were drafting bpa. Now we get bpa at a position of need and you still complain. Same thing every year. If we don't select "your guy" Mayhew failed.

When did i complain? I said i like the guys we drafted and they all fit a need. Doesn't mean i think we got good value.

 

[inkfreq]

Lol and you say i cherry pick stuff!.....really....the 1 qb that has done squat from the 6th round? Thats your example. And your late round rb examples just strengthen my point that you don't need to select high rd rbs if you have a solid oline. You pick a guard in rd 1...he better be a fucking stud or he wasnt worth it. As tony pointed out...ppl are comparing him to warford. WE GOT WARFORD IN THE 3RD ROUND. thats great value! Were all grown men.....either you guys just like to go against everything i say and are pretending to play dumb. Or you truly have no idea what value means and what I'm referring to.

Bud, I don't think YOU have any idea what you mean by value.

Your opinion of value is based off what? Where do you get your scouting reports and ranking? Did you talk to a single NFL scout or coach?

You dont' know what your own measure of value is.

You are right, I cherry picked names to make a point. I could have easily said Barry Sanders was a 1st round pick, as was Emmitt Smith, and Walter Payton, so if Todd Gurley doesn't live up to that it's "wasted value".

Someone would inevitably argue that you can't compare players from that era to modern players with the emphasis on the passing game, and I would spring my trap and point out Adrian Peterson.

My point is, you have no metric to assign value, you've provided no standard for the word "value", but you say these guys weren't good picks because they weren't value picks.

If you want people to argue with you less, then support your arguments by telling us what you decide value based on. And if it's "he better be as good as Kyle Long", then don't argue whether or not it's value until he's been to camp, made the final roster, and played a season or two to judge that by.

 

[inkfreq]

When did i complain? I said i like the guys we drafted and they all fit a need. Doesn't mean i think we got good value.

So let's define it. What pick # represents value for Laken Tomlinson? And where do you derive that number from?

If that's the number #1 target for the Lions, would he likely have been there at that number, and can you tell us how you arrived at that insight that he would or wouldn't?

 

[mhughes0021]

Bud, I don't think YOU have any idea what you mean by value.

Your opinion of value is based off what? Where do you get your scouting reports and ranking? Did you talk to a single NFL scout or coach?

You dont' know what your own measure of value is.

You are right, I cherry picked names to make a point. I could have easily said Barry Sanders was a 1st round pick, as was Emmitt Smith, and Walter Payton, so if Todd Gurley doesn't live up to that it's "wasted value".

Someone would inevitably argue that you can't compare players from that era to modern players with the emphasis on the passing game, and I would spring my trap and point out Adrian Peterson.

My point is, you have no metric to assign value, you've provided no standard for the word "value", but you say these guys weren't good picks because they weren't value picks.

If you want people to argue with you less, then support your arguments by telling us what you decide value based on. And if it's "he better be as good as Kyle Long", then don't argue whether or not it's value until he's been to camp, made the final roster, and played a season or two to judge that by.

Finally youre starting to get it! Yes! If gurley isnt as good as emmot or barry then it wasnt good value. Which is exactly why alot of gms don't believe in taking high round rbs. Our numbnuts has taken 3 in 5 years in an age where rbs mean less and less and play less and less. Hence....NOT GOOD VALUE.

i agree with your later statements. I should agree to wait to pass judgement but this is s message board so i don't. ...i speak how i feel.

Likewise if tomlinson does nothing to improve our oline. Abdullah fails to ever produce like a 2nd rd pick should and carter never cracks a starting lineup.....maybe then you can agree that we didnt get much VALUE out of the 2015 draft.

 

[inkfreq]

Finally youre starting to get it! Yes! If gurley isnt as good as emmot or barry then it wasnt good value. Which is exactly why alot of gms don't believe in taking high round rbs. Our numbnuts has taken 3 in 5 years in an age where rbs mean less and less and play less and less. Hence....NOT GOOD VALUE.

i agree with your later statements. I should agree to wait to pass judgement but this is s message board so i don't. ...i speak how i feel.

Likewise if tomlinson does nothing to improve our oline. Abdullah fails to ever produce like a 2nd rd pick should and carter never cracks a starting lineup.....maybe then you can agree that we didnt get much VALUE out of the 2015 draft.

I still want to know what I asked above. What pick number would represent value for Tomlinson and how do you arrive at that number?

To me it looks like you're just talking a bunch of uneducated bullshit because you feel like it, but if you have a number and a reason to back that number up, I'm sure willing to listen.

 

[mhughes0021]

So let's define it. What pick # represents value for Laken Tomlinson? And where do you derive that number from?

If that's the number #1 target for the Lions, would he likely have been there at that number, and can you tell us how you arrived at that insight that he would or wouldn't?

I think kyle long is a completely fair representation of what he should turn into if he's taken that high.

I dont think he's kyle long. I dont think he'll even be rob sims in year 1. I dont think our run game improves any with this weekends draft. I thijk abdullah had a chance to be great....but now hes running behind a poor run blocking oline so he wont be.

I think tomlinson would have been drafted prior to our 2nd rd pick. I base some of it off of mocks because mocks tend to put people where they are at based on their value. Intangibles move them up or down. Intangibles like character boosted Tomlinson's stock along with that teams need. while a guy like bennet suffers from it. I get that. But....it doesn't mean their talent value has changed any.

Tomlinson was a mid 2nd rd prospect....mainly because of the position he plays. Anything more than that is considered a reach. If he becomes a perennial pro bowler than fuck yes the reach paid off....

 

[inkfreq]

I think kyle long is a completely fair representation of what he should turn into if he's taken that high.

I dont think he's kyle long. I dont think he'll even be rob sims in year 1. I dont think our run game improves any with this weekends draft. I thijk abdullah had a chance to be great....but now hes running behind a poor run blocking oline so he wont be.

I think tomlinson would have been drafted prior to our 2nd rd pick. I base some of it off of mocks because mocks tend to put people where they are at based on their value. Intangibles move them up or down. Intangibles like character boosted Tomlinson's stock along with that teams need. while a guy like bennet suffers from it. I get that. But....it doesn't mean their talent value has changed any.

But you haven't answered my question at all. What pick number is good value for him, and how do you arrive at that number??

First of all, saying you base anything off mock sites shows it's an uneducated guess at best. Ifo Ekempre-Olomu is this year's crown jewel in that regard. All the mock's had him in the 3rd round. The professionals who evaluate talent completely disagreed, and he was a 7th round guy. Michael Bennett didn't go until the 6th.

Clearly the mock draft sites don't know their ass from a hole in the ground, so it makes it a very bad way to judge "value", which is what you are arguing.

But beyond that, you've also said you don't think he would have been there when we picked again in the 2nd, which means if he was our top target, it's certainly not a reach to take him when he won't last until the next pick we make.

But all that aside, what's the number? Is it pick 32? 43? 12?

What number would have represented "value" for him, and how do you get to that number? How many scouts and coaches have you spoken to about that number? Did you attend his Pro Day or the combine? Can we see your scouting notes that brought you to this perception of value?

 

[inkfreq]

In this thread, you stated you would have taken Ifo in the 6rh round. Wouldn't that represent bad value, by your measure, since the scouts and GMs obviously passed on him and felt he was a 7th round guy?

Also, didn't you state that when you don't know what position a guy will play, it means he won't play much at all, and that would be bad value too, right?

Here's Rotoworld's take on Ifo, you're 6th round guy. Read down where it says they think he will have to convert to safety in the NFL. The same Rotoworld that said Alex Carter, a player without an ugly knee injury, might convert to safety.

http://www.rotoworld.com/recent/cfb/132531/ifo-ekpre-olomu

So based on your own arguments, you would have taken a guy at bad value, who won't play because he doesn't even have a position, because Rotoworld says so?

If you're such a bad GM, why should anyone listen to you about where the value is for a player? You clearly don't know much at all about the draft, because you have already said you'd have happily taken bad value, injured player, and players who won't play anyway.

 

[Mitchrapp]

You didn't? So if the first 22 picks in the draft were wr and its our turn....you re saying you didn't realize the 23rd best wr probably isnt as good as anyone else in the draft? Value....you guys are proving to have no concept of what it is....

The 3rd best DT isn't always best than the the 4th best CB or T. The 5 best WR isn't always better than the 6th best S or DT.

By your logic the 4th best DE is worse than the 3rd best QB, always.

 

[mhughes0021]

The 3rd best DT isn't always best than the the 4th best CB or T. The 5 best WR isn't always better than the 6th best S or DT.

By your logic the 4th best DE is worse than the 3rd best QB, always.

Never said any of that. ...you are correct. I said the 2nd best 4-3 dt in the draft is better than the 8-10th best olineman.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Never said any of that. ...you are correct. I said the 2nd best 4-3 dt in the draft is better than the 8-10th best olineman.

Okay. I misunderstood. I suspect though Mayhew didn't think a DT/DE was needed at that point. Right or wrong, it'll take a while to know what the best decision was.