MSU pres. Resigns

[Sbee]

"As long as you don't get caught by the police, you're OK to do whatever you want." This is what is being taught these days

Nobody ever gets away with anything

coaches sometimes know more than the police in these situations

I'm not sure where you're getting that from. I can name a number of players at MSU that were kicked off the team with no police reports filed against them. I know for a fact that it's the same at Michigan and every other major D1 program. Guys get kicked off for "violations of team rules" which could be a lot of things, including breaking the law but not being prosecuted.

Craig Evans and Montez Sweat were kicked off the team for failure to meet the requirements set forth by MD. Neither were arrested, there is no public record of it. Evans was a starter at DT on the 2016 BT championship team and Sweat was going to be a stud, transferred to Mississippi State and had 10.5 sacks last year. We could have used those guys, but they were booted for the benefit of the program and we went 3-9 and came in dead last in the big ten in sacks by a mile.

Just an example

 

[MSUMatt28]

Whatever culpability Simon may have had or not back in 2014, she and the BOT showed about as poor leadership for the University (and a very callous attitude) as possible throughout this whole ordeal, and for that alone she probably deserved to no longer be in her position.


Also, I'd have to agree with others where it's been said that Hollis stepping down when he did and basically leaving Dantonio and Izzo to deal with all this on their own was pretty cowardly, unless he had good reason to step down based on the ESPN report coming out, and we'll have to see on that.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Out of curiosity, Sbee, do you still think it was terrible for Hoke to say Gibbons was dealing with family matters when in reality he was being booted?

 

[Gulo Blue]

Whatever culpability Simon may have had or not back in 2014, she and the BOT showed about as poor leadership for the University (and a very callous attitude) as one possibly could throughout this whole ordeal, and for that alone she probably deserved to no longer be in her position.


Also, I'd have to agree with others where it's been said that Hollis stepping down when he did and basically leaving Dantonio and Izzo to deal with all this on their own was pretty cowardly, unless he had good reason to step down based on the ESPN report coming out, and we'll have to see on that.

I agree with the first half. The Pepper Hamilton/leave no FOIA reports behind strategy said to me that MSU's leadership is trying to sweep this under the rug. They have mostly succeeded so far, so the public doesn't know who to blame for what (even if they act like they do). But investigations are coming.

 

[Sbee]

Out of curiosity, Sbee, do you still think it was terrible for Hoke to say Gibbons was dealing with family matters when in reality he was being booted?

It's separate from this story but yes, it was a bad thing to do to lie. You can say that he was dismissed from the university, violated team rules, or something like that. That's how that should be handled, not making it seem like he was tending to a family matter. That is an obvious cover up, not the right thing to do. If you think this wasn't a bad thing, I'd like to hear your reasoning.

 

[Sbee]

Whatever culpability Simon may have had or not back in 2014, she and the BOT showed about as poor leadership for the University (and a very callous attitude) as possible throughout this whole ordeal, and for that alone she probably deserved to no longer be in her position.


Also, I'd have to agree with others where it's been said that Hollis stepping down when he did and basically leaving Dantonio and Izzo to deal with all this on their own was pretty cowardly, unless he had good reason to step down based on the ESPN report coming out, and we'll have to see on that.

There's a difference of opinion, but it's hard to really look good in the wake of Larry Nassar, she could have done better but that's different from saying she could have prevented it. I don't think she was culpable in this situation at all. some believe that leaders should be let go if there are problems below them, whether or not they are at fault. I say Simon was not at fault for Nassar, she couldn't have prevented it unless she knew everything going on all the time around campus.

Jury is still out on Hollis, I need more info.

 

[Sbee]

I have some more info from another site, posted this on the MSU board. someone paused the tv when they showed the letter ESPN obtained to Hollis about Walton and the two other players.

... complaint from another student who reported being raped by three individuals with the MSU men's basketball team in April 2010: (and then it names the three players, blurred out).

"The incident occurred off-campus and was not reported to law enforcement. However, the victim became very concerned after hearing that the same men attempted an assault on another student co-worker in a similar manner. As a result, the student victim and her parents reported the incident to representatives from the MSU athletic department, including Athletic Director Mark Hollis, with the hope that more prevention work would be conducted

Reading this, it is entirely possible that the family did not want this to go public, they did not go to the police, they reported it over 16 months later to the MSU athletic department in hopes to curtail this kind of behavior, as indicated by the quote. In 2011, you weren't required to report all instances of misconduct to the title 9 office, that wasn't until the Obama administration issued guidelines on those matters.


That still doesn't clear the players as to why they weren't punished or what the situation was. Izzo needs to answer questions there, but it does show that they may not have covered anything up.

 

[Sbee]

Oddly enough, the sexual assault guidelines that are being discussed here were withdrawn by the brilliant education secretary, Betsy Devoss

https://www.cnn.com/2017/09/22/politics/betsy-devos-title-ix/index.html

 

[MSUMatt28]

There's a difference of opinion, but it's hard to really look good in the wake of Larry Nassar, she could have done better but that's different from saying she could have prevented it. I don't think she was culpable in this situation at all. some believe that leaders should be let go if there are problems below them, whether or not they are at fault. I say Simon was not at fault for Nassar, she couldn't have prevented it unless she knew everything going on all the time around campus.

Jury is still out on Hollis, I need more info.

I wasn't really saying she should be blamed for not preventing anything. But she did a very poor job of managing the crisis, which is something leaders are supposed to do.

 

[Gulo Blue]

In case people aren't aware of what I'm talking about with Pepper Hamilton, MSU hired Pepper Hamilton back in 2014 or 2015 to work with their title IX office and review their policies.
When news organizations filed FOIA request to see what the review found, they get stonewalled. ESPN is well know, but also the Lansing State Journal. They even redact what exactly Pepper Hamilton was supposed to review.

Then in the recent OTL article, I spotted this line: " In one case, a university-hired outside investigator claimed to have not even generated a written report at the conclusion of his work."

This same approach got a lot of press when Baylor used Pepper Hamilton to report without a paper trail.



http://msutoday.msu.edu/news/2015/n...mination-complaints-including-sexual-assault/

 

[biggunsbob]

Bob, you simply don't know the cases. As for Walton, I've said Izzo needs to answer some questions about him, why he was allowed to coach after the accusation of hitting the woman. I am ok with an answer saying they let the legal process play out and allowed him to coach while that was happening, there is innocence until proof of guilt. I can live with that one. The one that concerns me is the Walton rape allegation with two other players, from what I can tell is that a letter came to MSU about 15 months after it allegedly took place. I need to see how that was handled before I say Izzo should survive this. Please don't accuse me of just being a fan here, these programs are important to me and I absolutely love Izzo, but I am also saying that there may be damaging info out there that he can't recover from and may deserve to be let go, we don't know yet. That is not what a blind fanboy would say.

On the Appling and Payne case, I trust the prosecutor's office's assessment of the situation, that no crime occurred. The woman did not say "stop" as you said, she engaged in consensual sex with the players and at one point said that she was "done." none of the reports said that she said no, so that's factually incorrect. She said that she felt like she wasn't free to leave, although she never said that the players told her she had to stay or that she was restrained. If you don't trust the legal process on this one, I'd say you're being a fan more than being objective. They were legally cleared, I don't expect Izzo to suspend players who were exonerated through the legal system.

I am not saying that they've done nothing wrong, I need more info, at least on Izzo. I'm confident in how MD handled things, especially when you consider what ESPN left out of their story.

As for Simon and Hollis stepping down, they stepped down because of the public outcry and mob mentality. Simon was alerted of a title 9 investigation into an unnamed doctor in 2014, the title 9 office cleared Nassar. What was Simon supposed to do? Until I see proof that she was told before 2014, I stand by the fact that she shouldn't have stepped down. As for Hollis, I'm in wait and see mode with him. If there is evidence that he did cover up the Walton accusation or didn't report it properly, then he should have stepped down. As it relates to Nassar, I don't see Hollis being responsible. Doctors and trainers report up through the college of Osteopathic Medicine, not through the athletic department. Saying it happened under his watch is inaccurate.

Again, I'm not saying they did everything right, this Walton accusation may be the end of Izzo and that would be very hard to deal with. We need to hear from him, hopefully soon.

Again I do not disagree with some of what you say at all but if Msu feels it was wronged by ESPN it should sue them .Yeah there is alot of he said she said on the sexual incidents and I guess all the MSU players were cleared either in house or by the police lol.. Guess they didnt believe any of the women. There does seem to be a pattern at least we agree on that . Espn is not backing down as they keep showing the piece . So either msu is right or ESPN is right.
Again if Mark or Tom are clean they should sue espn. A lot of cases were kept in house. Sadly this is probably going on on every campus in America but there are some really bad shit you are defending sbee.
Msu was not transparent at all. They fought tough and nail to keep this information from seeing the light of day.

Simons, and Hollis would not have resigned if there was nothing there. Mark lied when he said he was there 11 years and this was the first time he has heard of this problem. So did they know or not know ?

 

[Gulo Blue]

It's separate from this story but yes, it was a bad thing to do to lie. You can say that he was dismissed from the university, violated team rules, or something like that. That's how that should be handled, not making it seem like he was tending to a family matter. That is an obvious cover up, not the right thing to do. If you think this wasn't a bad thing, I'd like to hear your reasoning.

It's not good, but it's also not the terrible evil you were so hung up on. I believe at the time, I felt that with an ongoing case, it wasn't Hoke's place to break the news, so he had to somehow cover up with his answer and it sucked that he couldn't do it more artfully, but wasn't the major embarrassment you made it out to be. The rest of the case, yes, but not Hoke's dealing with it.

 

[Sbee]

It's not good, but it's also not the terrible evil you were so hung up on. I believe at the time, I felt that with an ongoing case, it wasn't Hoke's place to break the news, so he had to somehow cover up with his answer and it sucked that he couldn't do it more artfully, but wasn't the major embarrassment you made it out to be. The rest of the case, yes, but not Hoke's dealing with it.

well I don't think the case was ongoing at that time, since he was already dismissed from the university. I am not really hung up on it, but it was a mistake not to at least admit that it was disciplinary.

 

[Sbee]

Again I do not disagree with some of what you say at all but if Msu feels it was wronged by ESPN it should sue them .Yeah there is alot of he said she said on the sexual incidents and I guess all the MSU players were cleared either in house or by the police lol.. Guess they didnt believe any of the women. There does seem to be a pattern at least we agree on that . Espn is not backing down as they keep showing the piece . So either msu is right or ESPN is right.
Again if Mark or Tom are clean they should sue espn. A lot of cases were kept in house. Sadly this is probably going on on every campus in America but there are some really bad shit you are defending sbee.
Msu was not transparent at all. They fought tough and nail to keep this information from seeing the light of day.

Simons, and Hollis would not have resigned if there was nothing there. Mark lied when he said he was there 11 years and this was the first time he has heard of this problem. So did they know or not know ?

I have to disagree with you on a lot of this Bob and I'll tell you why.

It's not the coaches job to believe the accuser or the player(s), it's their job to refer it to the proper authority, either the title 9 office or the police. It's their job to investigate and make decisions on procedure. From what I can tell, that's what they did, other than the incident involving Walton and two other players, but it seems as if the wishes of the accusers family did not want an investigation and they weren't legally bound to do so.

I agree with fighting to keep the accused players identities secret unless there are charges. The stain of sexual assault can follow someone their entire life, if you are going to name names, you really need to be sure there's at least enough there to go to court. MD kept the names of King, Corley, and Vance secret while the investigation was being conducted, I agree with that. If there was enough evidence to proceed to court (there was), then the names would come out (they did) and they were promptly dismissed before having their day in court.

I am not defending behavior that puts you in this situation, far from it, I'm defending Dantonio's handling of it and Izzo's handling of some of it (need some questions answered first).

 

[Michchamp]

Freep now reporting that Peter Secchia, a big time MSU booster, and big time donor to GOP causes around GR/Kent County was one of the major sponsors of a retirement party for William Forsyth, former Kent Co. prosecutor who was just appointed to lead the State investigation into the MSU scandal by AG Bill Schuette.

no conflict of interest here...

Secchia was the booster who just gave a bunch of dumb statements to the press about this.

 

[hungry]

They were promptly dismissed, 2 weeks before they would be expelled. Don't act like Dantonio didn't know that. His act of dismissing them is completely meaningless in that light.

 

[Gulo Blue]

well I don't think the case was ongoing at that time, since he was already dismissed from the university. I am not really hung up on it, but it was a mistake not to at least admit that it was disciplinary.

It was one of the really early cases with the new Title IX rules and lawsuits pushing back against it were just starting. Maybe the school action was wrapped up, but they probably didn't know it was wrapped up. But I don't disagree that it was a mistake. I just have a lot more concern for calculated administration cover ups than knee-jerk coach answers to press questions.

I can also get past Dantonio saying whatever he said about it being new to the program and chalk it up to a misunderstanding.

 

[Gulo Blue]

I agree with fighting to keep the accused players identities secret unless there are charges.

So where's the line between saying a player has been released for disciplinary action, which will get the press digging and out the player with no charges, and the need to keep the identity of the player secret?

 

[hungry]

I'm not convinced either has done everything on the up and up. Certain MSU fans are convinced that one or both did everything correctly. Well, all of the investigators aren't convinced either. This is why there will be an investigation.

I really question Izzo more than Dantonio. There is the whole "new territory" bs, but that alone isn't enough to sink him. Izzo? There are still a lot of questions there. Why continue to play Appling and Payne while a title IX investigation and a criminal investigation were in the works? What really happened and what did Izzo know? Why did the ADA decide to not press charges when the police recommended them? Weird that she is now employed by MSU. The Walton thing. Letting him coach while under investigation for littering. Why did he really leave? Was he fired? Did he leave on his own? Izzo can't remember? It doesn't add up.

Maybe I'm biased because I work with criminals all day or maybe I just have more education and experience in these matters. You might even say I'm an expert on the subject due to my education and 20 years in the criminal justice field.

We'll see. Like Bob says, if there's nothing to worry about it, then so be it. It'll be investigated. This we know.

 

[Michchamp]

In case people aren't aware of what I'm talking about with Pepper Hamilton, MSU hired Pepper Hamilton back in 2014 or 2015 to work with their title IX office and review their policies.
When news organizations filed FOIA request to see what the review found, they get stonewalled. ESPN is well know, but also the Lansing State Journal. They even redact what exactly Pepper Hamilton was supposed to review.

Then in the recent OTL article, I spotted this line: " In one case, a university-hired outside investigator claimed to have not even generated a written report at the conclusion of his work."

This same approach got a lot of press when Baylor used Pepper Hamilton to report without a paper trail.



http://msutoday.msu.edu/news/2015/n...mination-complaints-including-sexual-assault/

annoyingly, even Mary Lou Hennesy (or whatever her name was) pointed to their law firm's report to claim she and MSU were "exonerated." And the freep earlier reported an unnamed member of MSU's BOT pointed to the Jones Day report and said "you're going to love how we make out in this."

It's surprising people in such high positions could be that clueless.

you get exonerated by a judge or a jury after trial, not by your own lawyer in a memo you pay them to write!

it's like pointing to your mom's comments about your kindergarten art project and saying "I colored the most beautiful picture in history."