Gardner looking pretty good

[bamf_16]

The guys on the team that look like Marquise Walker can't run routes or catch the football. They need receivers that can catch the football and right now, that's Gallon and Dileo.

Roundtree can, but not consistently.

Jackson, Williams, eh, not interested in seeing them get more of a shot.

I wonder how far Darboh is from seeing the field. He's been on ST a couple times, so the redshirt is burned.

 

[hungry]

Gardner's 18 throws today:

1. Shotgun formation, 1 step, 6 yard completion to Gallon, staple play in this offense.
2. Rollout, interception
3. Shotgun, 3 step drop, out route to Dileo, incomplete, dropped, should have been caught
4. Shotgun, 2 fakes to running backs, bubble screen to Dileo for 4 yards
5. Gardner under center, PA pass to Gallon on a curl for 8 yards - the same type of pass I (and seemingly countless others) have been calling on Borges to do more with Denard
6. Fran Tarkenton impersonation, TD Dileo
7. Gardner under center, rolls right, side steps the rush, hits wide open Roundtree (a pass RR had to jump to catch and the defender was two steps behind, hits him in the stomach he may be able to make a move)
8. Gardner under center, PA pass, rolls right, steps back to his left, hits wide open Jerald Robinson for 22. Pass looked worse than it was; Robinson should have seen the zone coverage, recognized the passing lane and the QB scramble and sat down in the route. Perfect throw in the lane.
9. Gardner under center 3 step drop, hits Funchess on a short out route for 7.
10. Gardner under center, IForm, PA bubble screen to Gallon, thrown into the ground (the one where Gallon gets his ankle rolled up on, bad throw but the whole play looked FUBAR from the beginning)
11. Gardner from the shotgun, rolls left, throws a short pass to wide open Dileo for 8.
12. Gardner rolls right, incomplete to Funchess in the end zone (the play where he kept running and it looked like Gardner thought he'd stop)
13. Gardner in the shotgun, 1 step drop, Gallon on a slant, thrown behind him, ball pops up, almost picked.
14. IForm, play action fake, Gardner hits Gallon for 40+ down the sideline. A really well thrown ball.
15. Gardner in the shotgun, rolls, left, 360 turn at the sidelines and throws it away. Smart play.
16. Jump ball to Gallon in end zone for TD.
17. Gardner in the shotgun, rolls left, throws high and wide to Dileo who jumps up and makes a real nice catch (not one of his better throws)
18. Gardner in the shotgun, PA fake, rolls right, throws on the run across his body, jump ball to Roundtree with RR and Dileo in the area with 2 defenders. Jump ball, pure and simple

A lot of good throws (edit: and 2 GREAT throws). A lot that deserves credit, commendation, and a spot on the depth chart well above Bellomy. A lot that every quarterback needs to do more consistently, and a lot of plays (especially from under center) I think they need to do more of, with either of them playing the position.

Some of those 'bad throws' had touch, though, so the receiver was able to adjust and make the catch. Denard's "bad throws" come at them 90mph and the receiver can't adjust, so they either fly by to get intercepted or bounce off the receiver's hands.

 

[bamf_16]

bamf you still dont get it. we are not saying denard hasn't thrown the ball to a receiver longer than 25 yards. we are saying devin throws the ball better. his passes have touch, are smooth and are not full speed everytime. just because denards passes have got to the receiver in the past does not men they are perfect passes. that pass play against nebraska was a pretty good throw but odoms also made a great catch. the difference with devin is those pass plays dont have to have the receiver make a great catch. it is in their hands where it is suppose to be with touch so it doesnt just ricochette off their hands when the play is difficult to make.

*facepalm*

I was responding to a SPECIFIC POST, the one where the poster cited 25 yards as throwing downfield and asked me to refresh his memory as to when Denard threw downfield against OSU. I cited an example as asked.

That pass to Odoms was spot on.

And if you go back through, look at what has brought about a response from me. It's not a statement that Devin throws "better" than Denard. It's the statements that Devin is the "better runner" and that Devin yesterday made throws Denard hasn't made in his entire career.

 

[hungry]

First off and most important, teams have to honor the pass with Devin in. No one cares about Denard passing the ball. He gives them no reason. You, me, hungry, Victors and a couple others have already said he has learned absolutely nothing in his 4 years. He does the same shit he has always done. Errant throws to the other team, throwing off his back foot, throwing too hard, and no touch whatsofuckingever. Borges is almost forced to call certain plays because he is so scared of Denard coughing the ball up. We ran Pro Set, I, single back, no back. We threw off of the reverse instead of handing it off everytime. We handed it off to the back instead of giving it to Gallon every single time on the reverse. We actually ran the reverse to set up other plays instead of just running reverse to run it. Play action was well, play action. The LB's had to stay honest. Being able to throw into the flat was a sight for sore eyes. If we had to score with little time remaining, I had faith Devin would get it into the flat without bouncing it. It also seemed like the receivers never gave up when Devin had to scramble. He actually threw the ball away to avoid a sack and an int. Denard is fucking ball hog and other teams know it. Key him all day, like the good teams have, and your chances of winning are pretty darn good.

Now, this is just one game and I, like others, are getting a little carried away. Fact is, we didn't see read option left, read option right, reverse to Gallon alllllllll game long. We got a little taste of everything. It was fucking refreshing and a glimpse towards the future, not just with Devin as the QB. Minnesota is not that bad a team. If they beat ILL next week, they're bowl bound. If Kill wasn't such an idiot, it may have been a closer game.

I disagree here, but still value your opinion. I think Mn is a bad team. A team doesn't have to be good to go to a bowl these days and this O sure looked a lot better, because Mn is such a bad team.

That being said, Michigan still would've beaten Mn badly with Denard back there, but it would've happened differently.

Think back to 2 years ago, last year, and this year. Against good defenses, Denard and the MIchigan O (whether under RR or Borges) struggles mightily. It is because Denard can't just singlehandedly win the game with his feet.

 

[bamf_16]

I disagree here, but still value your opinion. I think Mn is a bad team. A team doesn't have to be good to go to a bowl these days and this O sure looked a lot better, because Mn is such a bad team.

That being said, Michigan still would've beaten Mn badly with Denard back there, but it would've happened differently.

Think back to 2 years ago, last year, and this year. Against good defenses, Denard and the MIchigan O (whether under RR or Borges) struggles mightily. It is because Denard can't just singlehandedly win the game with his feet.

"Denard can't just singlehandedly win the game with his feet."

Exactly. He can at times make plays, but 60 minutes of football levels it out more often than not. He needed to make throws to beat OSU and Nebraska last year and did. But Fitz has never been Denard's Steve Slaton. Look at Oregon this year; they too have a RB who's as big a big play threat as their QB. Denard hasn't had that, and with this type of offense, you have to have it (which rightfully explains why so many take issue with this zone read spread option style attack).

 

[hungry]

If Denard is hurt and can't or shouldn't play, fine. But if he is able, shouldn't he be permitted to start and play the last two B1G games of his career?

If 100% healthy? Yes.

 

[hungry]

No, because even though Denard Robinson gives this team the best chance to win, Devin Gardner was a 5 star QB, and Denard was ranked by scouting services as a CB and with Gardner the playbook is wide open instead of being limited with Denard Robinson. Plus, Gardner made throws yesterday that Denard has never made in his entire career. When Gardner rolled out and threw across his body, right into the hands of the defender, it was ok since the play started when he was under center, which is where all true "qb's" line up. When Gardner throws jump balls across his body downfield, it's a great throw because he gave his receiver a chance, whereas when Denard does it, it's just a kick returner throwing up a punt or a jump ball that falls short or gets intercepted. And finally, Gardner is the better runner.

In all seriousness, Gardner played a better game yesterday than I or most expected him to, and I liked that the gameplan wasn't Gardner in the shotgun all game, running zone read and bubble screens and hoping we'd move the ball consistently against an inferior defense and maybe a couple big plays would get us to 30 points. It's good that next August, it isn't Shane or bust. But Denard is still the better all around QB option for this team, and when he's healthy, he starts.

I thought it was obvious that the DG INT was due to rust. Meanwhile, DR's INT's cannot be attributed to rust. Rust that DG knocked off. Now if DG were still throwing INT's in the 4th quarter, you might have a point, but he wasn't.

 

[hungry]

So you put arguably your best WR in at QB and your best QB on the bench, only coming in for some plays at RB?

Interesting approach.

Denard goes back in when he's healthy, and find a way for Gardner to be ready to start at WR and to be the #2. I find a way to make it happen. Hoke was there when Woodson was playing both CB and WR. The only way it "can't be done" is if you don't find a way.

Weird, I never saw anyone suggest that Gallon, Roundtree, or Dileo should start at QB against NW. You think Devin Gardner is Michigan's best WR option? Why? Because he has slightly more catches? That isn't much of an argument.

 

[hungry]

That was brought up a couple times in the gameday thread, even before Denard went down. One of life's great unanswerable questions, I guess.

OK, I didn't read the gameday thread, since I watched the game from the bar and after that loss, didn't want to go back through the thread.

 

[bamf_16]

I thought it was obvious that the DG INT was due to rust. Meanwhile, DR's INT's cannot be attributed to rust. Rust that DG knocked off. Now if DG were still throwing INT's in the 4th quarter, you might have a point, but he wasn't.

The rust argument is convenient. This wasn't a throw on a slant pattern or other timing route that hasn't been practiced. This was a rollout, eyes downfield, and a bad decision made.

The play I think showed rust was that first QB draw where he waited WAY too long to start running. That's a timing play that just wasn't there, and that's they type of play where rust is a huge issue. That pick was more mental than physical. Hopefully he learned from it, and based on the decisions he made the rest of the afternoon, he got over it pretty quick.

*Disclaimer* I'm proving it's totally possible to recognize an overall job well done even while pointing out the mistakes.

 

[hungry]

The rust argument is convenient. This wasn't a throw on a slant pattern or other timing route that hasn't been practiced. This was a rollout, eyes downfield, and a bad decision made.

The play I think showed rust was that first QB draw where he waited WAY too long to start running. That's a timing play that just wasn't there, and that's they type of play where rust is a huge issue. That pick was more mental than physical. Hopefully he learned from it, and based on the decisions he made the rest of the afternoon, he got over it pretty quick.

*Disclaimer* I'm proving it's totally possible to recognize an overall job well done even while pointing out the mistakes.

If it wasn't a rust issue and it was a mental issue and Devin learned from it, then he just did something that Denard hasn't done for 3 years. Denard doesn't learn from throw to throw.

 

[bamf_16]

Weird, I never saw anyone suggest that Gallon, Roundtree, or Dileo should start at QB against NW. You think Devin Gardner is Michigan's best WR option? Why? Because he has slightly more catches? That isn't much of an argument.

ARGUABLY Michigan's best WR option, meaning UM doesn't have a Braylon Edwards or Marquise Walker who rises above the rest of the corps and stands out.

In all seriousness, are you just trying to "get my goat" so to speak, just trying to get a rise out of me? Or are you really not comprehending what's written?

I'd love the free entertainment though of you trying to make a case for Gallon or Dileo being Michigan's best WR option. Knock yourself out.

 

[bamf_16]

If it wasn't a rust issue and it was a mental issue and Devin learned from it, then he just did something that Denard hasn't done for 3 years. Denard doesn't learn from throw to throw.

And on that we agree.

 

[hungry]

ARGUABLY Michigan's best WR option, meaning UM doesn't have a Braylon Edwards or Marquise Walker who rises above the rest of the corps and stands out.

In all seriousness, are you just trying to "get my goat" so to speak, just trying to get a rise out of me? Or are you really not comprehending what's written?

I'd love the free entertainment though of you trying to make a case for Gallon or Dileo being Michigan's best WR option. Knock yourself out.

I think Rountree, Gallon, and Dileo are all better WR's than Devin. I'm not trying to get your goat or anything. I really don't think Devin is any good at WR. He has made a few catches this season, I'll give him that. I just don't think he is a good WR at all. I think all 3 that I listed are better options, better route runners and better at catching the football, which is what a WR needs to do.

 

[bamf_16]

I think Rountree, Gallon, and Dileo are all better WR's than Devin. I'm not trying to get your goat or anything. I really don't think Devin is any good at WR. He has made a few catches this season, I'll give him that. I just don't think he is a good WR at all. I think all 3 that I listed are better options, better route runners and better at catching the football, which is what a WR needs to do.

Don't forget about blocking. I'm a Pittsburgh guy who spent a great deal of his life watching Hines Ward!

I'll agree with you on Roundtree. I know people wanted to criticize the progress (or digression) players made while Rich Rod was here, and my desire to not be roasted on this board has kept me from sharing this thought, but I've wondered why Roundtree's development hit the proverbial wall. He's not overly fast, and the offense under the previous regime didn't consistently require the more complex routes, but Roundtree showed signs of really being a solid WR for this team, and in the last year and a half, it's just not happened. Is it coaching? Has he reached his potential? Does he just not run the routes well enough? I don't know. But if I'm evaluating receivers on this team, there just isn't much separation from Roundtree to Dileo and those in between.

But obviously, Hoke, Borges, and company think Gardner is a top option at WR.

 

[hungry]

I'll agree with you on Roundtree. I know people wanted to criticize the progress (or digression) players made while Rich Rod was here, and my desire to not be roasted on this board has kept me from sharing this thought, but I've wondered why Roundtree's development hit the proverbial wall. He's not overly fast, and the offense under the previous regime didn't consistently require the more complex routes, but Roundtree showed signs of really being a solid WR for this team, and in the last year and a half, it's just not happened. Is it coaching? Has he reached his potential? Does he just not run the routes well enough? I don't know. But if I'm evaluating receivers on this team, there just isn't much separation from Roundtree to Dileo and those in between.

But obviously, Hoke, Borges, and company think Gardner is a top option at WR.

Well, RichRod used Roundtree as a slot receiver. Hoke/Borges tried to make him an oustide WR. I don't think that's his position.

That being said, i think that he gets a lot of opposing team's best defender and that is another reason why he seems to have disappeared. Other teams key on Roundtree, which opens up other receivers.

 

[bamf_16]

Well, RichRod used Roundtree as a slot receiver. Hoke/Borges tried to make him an oustide WR. I don't think that's his position.

That being said, i think that he gets a lot of opposing team's best defender and that is another reason why he seems to have disappeared. Other teams key on Roundtree, which opens up other receivers.

You're probably right. Some of our better outside receivers from 2000-2007 are guys like Terrell, Avant, Walker, Edwards, Manningham, and Arrington..... and the guys in the slot were guys like Ronald Bellamy, Steve Breaston, Calvin Bell, Greg Mathews... I can see the argument that Roundtree is more like those guys than he is the first group.

Wasn't Hemingway used in the slot too? I seem to remember him running TE type routes across the middle or underneath middle zones.

 

[hungry]

You're probably right. Some of our better outside receivers from 2000-2007 are guys like Terrell, Avant, Walker, Edwards, Manningham, and Arrington..... and the guys in the slot were guys like Ronald Bellamy, Steve Breaston, Calvin Bell, Greg Mathews... I can see the argument that Roundtree is more like those guys than he is the first group.

Wasn't Hemingway used in the slot too? I seem to remember him running TE type routes across the middle or underneath middle zones.

No, I don't think Hemmingway was in the slot.

I remember Breaston tore shit up in the slot and then Lloyd tried to turn him into an outside WR and failed miserably. Sometimes slot guys should just stay in the slot.

You say that Hoke/Borges think of DG as A top option in one sentence and then say that he is arguably THE top option in another sentence. Which is it? If Hoke/Borges thinks that DG is THE top option at WR, I disagree with them.

 

[jever4321]

Well Gardner physically looks like a prototypical NFL wide receiver.

 

[bamf_16]

No, I don't think Hemmingway was in the slot.

I remember Breaston tore shit up in the slot and then Lloyd tried to turn him into an outside WR and failed miserably. Sometimes slot guys should just stay in the slot.

You say that Hoke/Borges think of DG as A top option in one sentence and then say that he is arguably THE top option in another sentence. Which is it? If Hoke/Borges thinks that DG is THE top option at WR, I disagree with them.

Do you know what it means when someone says, "arguably?"

When someone says, "Devin Gardner is arguably Michigan's top receiver" it means you can make an argument for it, but it's unclear.

It's why no one ever called Braylon Edwards arguably Michigan's best receiver in 2004. It wasn't an argument. He was. What was said was that he was arguably the best wideout in the nation. There were guys like Troy Williamson, Mark Clayton, etc who were also damn good.

When I say that Devin Gardner is arguably Michigan's best option at WR, there's an argument for it, but it's not clear cut. Some could argue for Roundtree, others maybe for Gallon, etc. But given the position switch of a highly touted QB, they clearly think he's one of the two best wideouts on the team.