Hoops vs MSU

[Gulo Blue]

And that is why we call you the smartest guy on this board - and by "we" I don't mean the general consensus on this board, as enlightened as the rest of them may be; I'm referring to myself (the very occasionally correctly used self-reflective first person pronoun in this situation) and Vic, who years ago together bilaterally and tribunally accorded you as such, with no requisite authorization from anyone else, the unequivocal and incontestable distinction as smartest poster on this here board.

I don't know man. Doing anything tribunally, but with no requisite authorization takes a kind of brilliance that might be beyond me.

 

[Michchamp]

I'm happy my team beat our biggest rival in basketball twice this season, convincingly both times, especially because of how irritating they were preseason, pounding their chest about early rankings and victories, something they always claim to dislike about Michigan fans and pre-season football rankings & September wins.

But I'm even more happy that we won the Big Ten tournament, getting sweet revenge on Nebraska and Purdue along the way.

 

[dubbsco]

Honestly, I feel like I woke up in bizarro world. Never once did I think MSU fans would try and sell that a non-conference game against a good UNC team in DECEMBER matters more than their rival from 45 minutes down the road.

But then, that made me finally realize... They have turned into what they once hated. Michigan football fan.

 

[Michchamp]

Honestly, I feel like I woke up in bizarro world. Never once did I think MSU fans would try and sell that a non-conference game against a good UNC team in DECEMBER matters more than their rival from 45 minutes down the road.

But then, that made me finally realize... They have turned into what they once hated. Michigan football fan.

it's gonna be okay. just move on.

 

[dubbsco]

it's gonna be okay. just move on.

What a weird time to be alive.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Honestly, I feel like I woke up in bizarro world. Never once did I think MSU fans would try and sell that a non-conference game against a good UNC team in DECEMBER matters more than their rival from 45 minutes down the road.

But then, that made me finally realize... They have turned into what they once hated. Michigan football fan.

That's not what's happening here. We had people downplaying the importance of the MSU game when we won it most of the time. As soon as they started winning, it was clearly important.

I don't know what you call it when people downplay the importance of losing to a rival, but that's not something we've done.

 

[dubbsco]

That's not what's happening here. We had people downplaying the importance of the MSU game when we won it most of the time. As soon as they started winning, it was clearly important.

I don't know what you call it when people downplay the importance of losing to a rival, but that's not something we've done.

Maybe not here, but it's been a constant narrative over my years of fandom that the fan base has seen games like ND and OSU as more important than MSU. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I've always valued MSU just as much as OSU, if not more. Handle your business in state first then worry about the rest.

 

[Spartanmack]

Yeah you are right. The UCLA game was much more important than you guys. At least they competed.

What you and Mack are doing is the classic, instinctual reaction to a loss that gets under your skin. Get your ass kicked by your rivals twice and come back with, "Well, the tournament doesn't matter." "We don't care too much about that loss, Duke and UNC are more important."

I used to do it back in the day when it was tough for me to accept losses to a rival. But I learned how important it is. And that's why those losses burn me. I don't do this deflecting BS that has strangely taken over this board.

I don't recall saying any of that. I never said the tournament doesn't matter. It's not the end all, be all but it matters. It certainly mattered more to uofm than MSU but it still mattered to both. I also don't recall saying that I don't care about the loss - in fact I said the loss stung - it even stung more than the loss to dook because we were expected to beat uofm. You're arguing against points nobody is making. For some reason you've gotten your dander up about what certain MSU fans think about wins against uofm and other teams. You're butt-hurt over the fact that MSU fans don't view uofm the way you think they should and you're throwing a fit like a little school girl over something that shouldn't matter to you.

 

[Spartanmack]

Nah, I just find it absolutely hilarious that M football fans got shit on for years from you guys that we valued ND and OSU more than you, and now it's come completely full circle. The irony is just laughable.

go find one post where I shit on uofm fans. Never happened - at least not about uofm football or basketball. I do shit on several of them regularly in the politics board though. When you read animosity toward uofm into my posts, that's on you, not me.

 

[Spartanmack]

I think a good analogy to Michigan football would be if OSU was #13 and ND was #5. In that scenario, I'd very much prefer the win over OSU and it isn't remotely close.

I don't think there are good analogies to be found in football for this scenario - the rivalries in football are so much different. I doubt even uofm or osu fans care nearly as much about basketball games as they do football. Have you ever played osu in hoops for anything close to the equivalent of a shot at the Rose Bowl? Most games you play them in hoops are meaningless.

If uofm were my #1 team, and they were competitive outside the B1G, I'd want to beat dook and unc way more than osu. I'd still hate losing to osu, but I'd value wins against better teams more. Except for one or two years under matta, or back in the Jimmy Jackson days, beating osu wasn't a big deal. I'd even add elite programs that didn't beat you in the NC when uofm was paying players to get there, like Kentucky. Or how about when they got there legitimately (as far as we know) and lost to Louisville - I'd want to beat them way more than osu. If you looked at the value of wins, you'd probably want to beat MSU more than osu. That second paragraph was for you Tinsel...

edit: oops, I think I might have just shit on uofm fans - but it was all in good fun, no malice intended. I was just channeling my inner-Tinsel. You guys finished the season strong and should be excited for the tournament - I'll be cheering for you in every game in the tourney right up until the point you have to play MSU (in the unlikely event that happens).

 

[Spartanmack]

That's not what's happening here. We had people downplaying the importance of the MSU game when we won it most of the time. As soon as they started winning, it was clearly important.

I don't know what you call it when people downplay the importance of losing to a rival, but that's not something we've done.

Are we doing that? I don't think anyone has said it's not important. All I've said from the beginning is I would value wins over elite teams more than wins over uofm - that was the argument from the beginning. dubs and hungry have taken that personally and tried to make it about something it's not. Anyone who piles on should have their smartest poster on the board credentials revoked - reviewed at a minimum.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Are we doing that? I don't think anyone has said it's not important. All I've said from the beginning is I would value wins over elite teams more than wins over uofm - that was the argument from the beginning. dubs and hungry have taken that personally and tried to make it about something it's not. Anyone who piles on should have their smartest poster on the board credentials revoked - reviewed at a minimum.

1) Yeah. You are doing what I said. You ranked a bigtime, out of conference #5 team over a #13 rival. Since what we are talking about is the relative importance, that's what it is.

2) Don't overreach with what I said. I'm arguing there's a big difference between this and what we're been accused of in the past. Maybe I could triple the length of my post to more clearly define limits to what I'm saying, but I shouldn't have to. If people read posts to understand meaning, they can use context to understand these limits without the need to argue technicalities like lawyers all the time. Could you read what I wrote to mean we're talking about any level of importance that suits your argument; yes. Should you; no. Because I obviously didn't mean to suggest that anybody thinks any game is "not important".

 

[Gulo Blue]

Anyone who piles on should have their smartest poster on the board credentials revoked - reviewed at a minimum.

It's tough to get the tribunal to issue a call to order, but I'm ok with a review or getting my title revoked. Not for this thread specifically, but generally speaking I feel that I get too much credit while not voicing strong opinions on technical football matters. The smartest poster on the board should be someone that does well in the score prediction threads.

 

[Michchamp]

It's tough to get the tribunal to issue a call to order, but I'm ok with a review or getting my title revoked. Not for this thread specifically, but generally speaking I feel that I get too much credit while not voicing strong opinions on technical football matters. The smartest poster on the board should be someone that does well in the score prediction threads.

From my general recollection, no one consistently does well in the score prediction threads.

like life itself, they are chaotic, unpredictable, and random. success one week is frequently followed by failure the next.

maybe we should keep track next season? I guess we could also go back and compile results.

 

[Spartanmack]

1) Yeah. You are doing what I said. You ranked a bigtime, out of conference #5 team over a #13 rival. Since what we are talking about is the relative importance, that's what it is.

2) Don't overreach with what I said. I'm arguing there's a big difference between this and what we're been accused of in the past. Maybe I could triple the length of my post to more clearly define limits to what I'm saying, but I shouldn't have to. If people read posts to understand meaning, they can use context to understand these limits without the need to argue technicalities like lawyers all the time. Could you read what I wrote to mean we're talking about any level of importance that suits your argument; yes. Should you; no. Because I obviously didn't mean to suggest that anybody thinks any game is "not important".

1) no, I'm not downplaying the #13 rival. In fact I'm now saying for at least the 3rd time that the loss to uofm hurts more than the loss to dook - moreso because of expectations than the rivalry, but it still hurts more. Again for about the third time, I've actually been making a different argument which is that had we beaten uofm, it would have mattered less to me (and the committee, and just about everybody who understands college basketball) than beating unc and purdue (and dook if we beat them). Remember, if we beat you, you don't have the purdue win either and you move down in the rankings, not up. I don't see why it's so hard for anyone to understand why that win would be less valuable. If we played you a third time and beat you, I'd feel differently about it given the much different circumstances. If I think beating them is important but less important than beating better teams or simply not as important as you think it should be to me, that's not downplaying the uofm loss.

2) I'm not overreaching either and there isn't a big difference because I've never accused uofm fans of anything in the past. I know we're not your primary rival in football and I don't care. I also know most rational uofm fans, some here even, admit the football rivalry is much bigger than people like dubbs and hungry claim. You may not have meant to suggest that anybody thinks any game is "not important" but you seem to clearly suggest that it's should be more important to me than it is - you don't get to decide that.

 

[Spartanmack]

I'm happy my team beat our biggest rival in basketball twice this season, convincingly both times, especially because of how irritating they were preseason, pounding their chest about early rankings and victories, something they always claim to dislike about Michigan fans and pre-season football rankings & September wins.

But I'm even more happy that we won the Big Ten tournament, getting sweet revenge on Nebraska and Purdue along the way.

Shockingly, I agree with you - you should value the BTT Championship way more than beating MSU or any other team in the tourney. And I also agree with you about beating a highly ranked purdue team after losing to them twice - that to me is bigger than beating a higher ranked MSU. Plus, I still think Purdue is the better team - they prob beat uofm 6 out of 10 times. I'd don't completely agree on the Nebraska game but the fact that they bitch slapped uofm and ended up edging them in the standings with the tie-breaker, I can't say it's wrong just because we are more of a traditional rival.

 

[Gulo Blue]

1) no, I'm not downplaying the #13 rival. In fact I'm now saying for at least the 3rd time that the loss to uofm hurts more than the loss to dook - moreso because of expectations than the rivalry, but it still hurts more. Again for about the third time, I've actually been making a different argument which is that had we beaten uofm, it would have mattered less to me (and the committee, and just about everybody who understands college basketball) than beating unc and purdue (and dook if we beat them). Remember, if we beat you, you don't have the purdue win either and you move down in the rankings, not up. I don't see why it's so hard for anyone to understand why that win would be less valuable. If we played you a third time and beat you, I'd feel differently about it given the much different circumstances. If I think beating them is important but less important than beating better teams or simply not as important as you think it should be to me, that's not downplaying the uofm loss.

2) I'm not overreaching either and there isn't a big difference because I've never accused uofm fans of anything in the past. I know we're not your primary rival in football and I don't care. I also know most rational uofm fans, some here even, admit the football rivalry is much bigger than people like dubbs and hungry claim. You may not have meant to suggest that anybody thinks any game is "not important" but you seem to clearly suggest that it's should be more important to me than it is.

I'm not telling anybody how they should feel. Forget that. I've said how big a rivalry is to me. To you, and I guess gotime, it seems to be less. That reminds dubbs of a time when Michigan fans weren't as into the Michigan-MSU football rivalry, but I think two case are very different.

I get that you don't like the way I describe your prioritization of the rivalry relative to how I perceive rivalry, but I'm not sure what word would make you happy either. I'm not trying assign a degree to it. Just argue that in times when we've prioritized it beneath a big out of conference win, that was when we were winning regularly, not after a pair of losses.

 

[Gulo Blue]

I don't think there are good analogies to be found in football for this scenario - the rivalries in football are so much different. I doubt even uofm or osu fans care nearly as much about basketball games as they do football.

This is a good point. Basketball and hockey, to me, are less important than football by a great deal. I don't watch most games, so it impacts me more if I'm going to talk to someone about it. Most of my life, that's generally meant talking to a Spartan. So the Michigan-MSU rivalry is bigger within those sports even though it's a smaller deal overall. I'd take ANY win in football over almost any regular season win in basketball.

 

[tinselwolverine]

I don't know man. Doing anything tribunally, but with no requisite authorization takes a kind of brilliance that might be beyond me.

Damn.

I had some glorious verbage goin' in that there post you quoted.

Maybe I am the smartest poster to this here board.

Or maybe Vic and I together.

Maybe I fly higher than an eagle,
and Vic is the wind beneath my wings.

 

[Spartanmack]

I'm not telling anybody how they should feel. Forget that. I've said how big a rivalry is to me. To you, and I guess gotime, it seems to be less. That reminds dubbs of a time when Michigan fans weren't as into the Michigan-MSU football rivalry, but I think two case are very different.

I get that you don't like the way I describe your prioritization of the rivalry relative to how I perceive rivalry, but I'm not sure what word would make you happy either. I'm not trying assign a degree to it. Just argue that in times when we've prioritized it beneath a big out of conference win, that was when we were winning regularly, not after a pair of losses.

I'm not saying this to be a jerk or poke fun at you or your argument but I honestly don't care how you or anyone else perceives the rivalry in either sport. Why dubbs and hungry are so incredulous when it comes to how I feel about the game/rivalry is baffling to me. I think rivalries in basketball matter a lot less to just about everyone, or at least they should. And football rivalries don't carry over 1 for 1 to basketball.

Given the smaller schedule in football, every game matters more so rivalries are more important and more likely to develop. The comparisons to football are meaningless.

In hoops we almost never play uofm with much on the line - and this year was no different. If we beat uofm, we still have to beat PU to probably get the 1 seed. Lose to purdue and we're a solid 2 seed, lose to uofm and we're a weaker 2, solid 3 - that's not exactly a big deal. Losses suck, but that one doesn't come close to making or breaking our season. And since they won the BTT (congrats to them btw), it hurts us even less.

Just like you've played bigger games against OSU and ND in football, we've played in way more big games against dook, unc and even kentucky in hoops than we have against uofm in the last 25 years - uofm has played bigger basketball games against at least 2 of those teams too, btw - just not as many. And we've come out on the short end of the stick in most of them - why shouldn't I consider them a bigger rival, even if they don't feel the same way? And those teams are better than uofm in hoops - why wouldn't I value a win over them more than a win over uofm? That doesn't mean I don't value wins over uofm or consider them a rival.