Let's go get REVIS!!!!!!

[Mitchrapp]

Though to be honest I'm not sure someone can say 4 miracle wins without the 4 "no way we should have lost" during the '12 season. Fair is fair. Basically we were a bit lucky in '11 and a bit unlucky in '12. We probably should have had 7-8 wins each of the season.

 

[lionsFTW]

Another thing to consider is that while teams go from worst to first they're doing it with some pieces. Mayhew literally inherited THE WORST PROFESSIONAL FOOTBALL TEAM OF ALL TIME! There's no getting around this fact and it cannot be stressed enough. Nobody has ever had to turn around what he's been given the task of doing, and this should be taken into consideration when judging his performance.

To go back to cheeno's question I feel the blame for 2012 falls somewhere like this

schwartz>players>>>mayhew

If you would've asked me directly after the season I would've probably had the players and schwartz flip flopped but the more I look back on how things played out, the more I think he probably deserves to carry the bulk of it if for no other reason than they simply didn't play 60 minutes of good football on game days very often. We consistently started off super sluggish and just couldn't get out of the hole we dug. Imo this falls more on the coach's for lack of preparation than it does on the players for lack of execution (with exception of maybe Stafford specifically).

I'm definitely not ready to pull the plug on this group. They've shown progress at every step of the way till this year and I really don't want to panic at the first sign of adversity and hit the reset button. 2013 is the make or break year for mayhew/schwartz, though. It's 9+ wins or the whole thing gets blown up, imo.

 

[LKP]

You start thinking long term when you think you can win now. Thank you for proving my point.

The GMs job is to think long term. Once you realize this you'll be better off with the picks.

And Reiff and Broyles are good players and will be for many years. Your one year bubble doesn't fly if you get 3 plus years of great play.

 

[Mitchrapp]

People keep bringing up Broyles. The guy has had two fucked up injuries. I'm not sure you can count on him for "many years" to come.

 

[lionsFTW]

meh, ACL's are like the equivalent of a broken hand nowadays. as long as they take their time and allow him to come back as healthy as possible then he should be pretty good to go.

edit: would obv prefer no injuries to begin with, its just that sports medicine is pretty remarkable now. even a decade ago an achilles injury like Leshore had was almost a career ender. now they're back playing in 10 months and close to fully recovered in 20!

 

[cheeno]

The GMs job is to think long term. Once you realize this you'll be better off with the picks.

And Reiff and Broyles are good players and will be for many years. Your one year bubble doesn't fly if you get 3 plus years of great play.

Only a gm for the Lions has the luxury of thinking long term. Most are in the mode of win now or you're fired. However Ford will keep you around for your ten year plan, even if that means 10 losing seasons. So actually good point, we should draft a bunch of injury cases who were projected high and need to 'heal' (lets admit it, theyll be out of,football in two years a la Best) and players to 'develop' (even though the Lions haven't developed a player since Lem Barney), so they will be good 5-10 years down the road. Mayhew's plan is coming into focus now!

 

[mhughes0021]

The GMs job is to think long term. Once you realize this you'll be better off with the picks.

And Reiff and Broyles are good players and will be for many years. Your one year bubble doesn't fly if you get 3 plus years of great play.

ya you said the same thing about titus. Probably said the same thing about best too. Aka....you cant predict the future and have no clue if broyles will be any good. If you think long term you don't blow all your high round picks on wrs and rbs. 3rd and 4th string WRs don't add value to your team long term. Definitely not as much as a starting position on your defense would. Rbs are a dime a dozen unless you are a difference maker. Leshoure isn't a difference maker. If you need proof ...welp....his own coach played a undrafted guy just as much as him.

 

[LKP]

Best is a good player. Just unlucky with him. Young has talent but is a head case. Luckily we have Broyles and Burelson to cover the blow of losing Young in 2013. Beyond with Broyles.

LeShoure had 9 TDs and he'll grow as a player and get better run blocking in 2013. Bell played because he's good and Best was hurt. LeShoure had 215 carries in 14 games. They used him plenty. And LMFAO just as much. Bell had 82 carries in 16 games, LeShoure had 215. You better keep a better carry count next year.

 

[mhughes0021]

Best is a good player. Just unlucky with him. Young has talent but is a head case. Luckily we have Broyles and Burelson to cover the blow of losing Young in 2013. Beyond with Broyles.

LeShoure had 9 TDs and he'll grow as a player and get better run blocking in 2013. Bell played because he's good and Best was hurt. LeShoure had 215 carries in 14 games. They used him plenty. And LMFAO just as much. Bell had 82 carries in 16 games, LeShoure had 215. You better keep a better carry count next year.

ya...Schwartz saw what leshoure did the first 12 games....nothing...then decided to play bell more down the stretch cause leshoure had a shitty 3.6 ypc and a career long of 16 yards.

You said he drafts for the future. Best lasted 2 years and titus didn't even make it that long. That's the shortest future ive ever heard of. I don't care what excuses you want to make....they didn't work out.

 

[lionsFTW]

If you think long term you don't blow all your high round picks on wrs and rbs. 3rd and 4th string WRs don't add value to your team long term.

To be fair I believe there was a game plan in regards to Titus and Broyles.

Character issues aside Titus really showed his rookie year he was capable of playing on the outside. Once he proved this I image Mayhew quickly had thoughts of Calvin and Titus on the outside paired up with a nifty slot/possession type guy who was super heady and could work the middle of the field. Kind of like our own little version of Welker.

Enter Broyles. . .

I think they planned on letting Calvin, Titus, and Burleson play out this past year allowing Broyles to come along at his own pace with the knee recovery and getting up to speed with the NFL. Then after this season the plan was to cut Burleson, roll with Calvin and Young outside and let Broyles dominate the middle of the field for the next 5-7 years as a group.

I think it was a very good plan in theory but just didn't pan out the way they envisioned.

Sure you can complain about using two seconds on a #2 and #3 WR instead of other starting positions but we use 3 WR sets more than pretty much every team in the league. These are critical positions in our system.

 

[mhughes0021]

To be fair I believe there was a game plan in regards to Titus and Broyles.

Character issues aside Titus really showed his rookie year he was capable of playing on the outside. Once he proved this I image Mayhew quickly had thoughts of Calvin and Titus on the outside paired up with a nifty slot/possession type guy who was super heady and could work the middle of the field. Kind of like our own little version of Welker.

Enter Broyles. . .

I think they planned on letting Calvin, Titus, and Burleson play out this past year allowing Broyles to come along at his own pace with the knee recovery and getting up to speed with the NFL. Then after this season the plan was to cut Burleson, roll with Calvin and Young outside and let Broyles dominate the middle of the field for the next 5-7 years as a group.

I think it was a very good plan in theory but just didn't pan out the way they envisioned.

Sure you can complain about using two seconds on a #2 and #3 WR instead of other starting positions but we use 3 WR sets more than pretty much every team in the league. These are critical positions in our system.

they were #3 and #4 WRs. Titus sucked on the outside opposite calvin and very rarely beat 1 v 1 coverage on any route other than a 1 yrd slant on the goalline. Its a dagger to my heart every time torrey smith is wide open 50 yards down the field.

 

[Mitchrapp]

More Torrey Smith? They were both rated very similar when drafted. You make it sound like he was a no brainer over Titus. If he was, he wouldn't have been picked late second round.

 

[boogerlovejoy]

they were #3 and #4 WRs. Titus sucked on the outside opposite calvin and very rarely beat 1 v 1 coverage on any route other than a 1 yrd slant on the goalline. Its a dagger to my heart every time torrey smith is wide open 50 yards down the field.

Man, you must be fuckin suicidal every time Tom Brady throws a TD, Cameron Wake has a sack or Arian Foster breaks a long run.

Fuck, get over it already.

 

[lionsFTW]

they were #3 and #4 WRs. Titus sucked on the outside opposite calvin and very rarely beat 1 v 1 coverage on any route other than a 1 yrd slant on the goalline. Its a dagger to my heart every time torrey smith is wide open 50 yards down the field.

For their careers so far per game average

Young) 5.38 targets - 3.12 catches - 38.08 yards - 0.39 TD's

Smith) 6.40 targets - 3.09 catches - 53.00 yards - 0.46 TD's


So, to this point Torrey has basically been Baltimore's #2 WR transitioning into their #1 target. He's getting ~13% more targets on a per game basis than Young while contributing a whopping 15 more yards and an extra 0.49 more points.

I understand the future bodes much better for Torey in Bmore than it does for Titus here but you make it seem like to this day Smith has been the next coming of Randy Moss while Titus has been an instant bust. It's just not true. Their talents were graded very similar leading to the draft and to date they've performed very similar on a per game basis (Titus 26 samples, Torrey 32).

Until you chill out projecting your 20/20 hindsight on everything Mayhew/Schwartz does I don't think I'll be vetting any more of your arguments. IMO they're just not compelling anymore. Expecting people to be even close to 80% accurate when making decisions of incomplete information is a completely unrealistic burden to place on them, let alone the 100% you seem to think is appropriate.

Edit: and I mean none of the above as a put down or anything, I'm just sayin

 

[mhughes0021]

For their careers so far per game average

Young) 5.38 targets - 3.12 catches - 38.08 yards - 0.39 TD's

Smith) 6.40 targets - 3.09 catches - 53.00 yards - 0.46 TD's


So, to this point Torrey has basically been Baltimore's #2 WR transitioning into their #1 target. He's getting ~13% more targets on a per game basis than Young while contributing a whopping 15 more yards and an extra 0.49 more points.

I understand the future bodes much better for Torey in Bmore than it does for Titus here but you make it seem like to this day Smith has been the next coming of Randy Moss while Titus has been an instant bust. It's just not true. Their talents were graded very similar leading to the draft and to date they've performed very similar on a per game basis (Titus 26 samples, Torrey 32).

Until you chill out projecting your 20/20 hindsight on everything Mayhew/Schwartz does I don't think I'll be vetting any more of your arguments. IMO they're just not compelling anymore. Expecting people to be even close to 80% accurate when making decisions of incomplete information is a completely unrealistic burden to place on them, let alone the 100% you seem to think is appropriate.

Edit: and I mean none of the above as a put down or anything, I'm just sayin

Its not hindsight. Ive been saying it the second spievey, best, Titus, leshoure and broyles were drafted. The levy pick i wasnt very happy with either. Trade ups for garbage like whitehead. I call it like i see it and i happened to be right in pretty much all of those cases. All i have left to hope for out of that group is that leshoure can figure it out and broyles will stop blowing out his knees....or else ill be right about them too. Ill chill out when we dont suck....deal?

 

[cheeno]

Its not hindsight. Ive been saying it the second spievey, best, Titus, leshoure and broyles were drafted. The levy pick i wasnt very happy with either. Trade ups for garbage like whitehead. I call it like i see it and i happened to be right in pretty much all of those cases. All i have left to hope for out of that group is that leshoure can figure it out and broyles will stop blowing out his knees....or else ill be right about them too. Ill chill out when we dont suck....deal?

Looking back on some of the picks just reminds me of Millen, in the way I look at the guys drafted at the same position in the same round and say definitively, "that was the right pick". Titus vs. Torrey is a great example of that, even though I will admit that the hindsight criticism is valid. I don't think you can compare those kind of misses to passing on Tom Brady or Arian Foster.

 

[mhughes0021]

Looking back on some of the picks just reminds me of Millen, in the way I look at the guys drafted at the same position in the same round and say definitively, "that was the right pick". Titus vs. Torrey is a great example of that, even though I will admit that the hindsight criticism is valid. I don't think you can compare those kind of misses to passing on Tom Brady or Arian Foster.

titus vs torrey its not really the statistical comparison that is the utmost importance.....its what they bring to the table. They chose titus to be the deep threat opposite calvin. That's exactly what torrey does well. Titus wasn't getting open down the field. But if you want to use the stats lions brought to the table his 3 catches and 38 ypg is a good stat that shows that.

edit...btw I wanted Orlando franklin or ijalana in my mocks. imjust saying with the whole torrey v titus thing that if you wanted a deep threat to be opposite calvin....they did a poor job picking the right guy. Out of cobb, smith and titus....looks like titus is going to be the dud and he was picked several spots higher.

 

[mhughes0021]

Looking back on some of the picks just reminds me of Millen, in the way I look at the guys drafted at the same position in the same round and say definitively, "that was the right pick". Titus vs. Torrey is a great example of that, even though I will admit that the hindsight criticism is valid. I don't think you can compare those kind of misses to passing on Tom Brady or Arian Foster.

kinda hipicrtical, right? the same guys that bash millen for choosing Rodgers, Williams and Williams will defend mayhew for choosing titus, broyles, best and leshoure. Meanwhile our defense blows and needs 8 starters signed.

 

[cheeno]

kinda hipicrtical, right? the same guys that bash millen for choosing Rodgers, Williams and Williams will defend mayhew for choosing titus, broyles, best and leshoure. Meanwhile our defense blows and needs 8 starters signed.

Exactly. Criticism where criticism is due.

 

[lionsFTW]

I have no qualms with Millen about Roy Williams or Charles Rodgers. They were good picks at the time and saying anything else, as is with most of these things, is just being results oriented.

Let me ask you guys a question. If I offer to flip a coin with you but the stipulation is that you have to put up your entire net worth and I will put up double whatever that amount is, do you take the risk? If you do take the risk and lose was it a bad investment?

Detroit brought Torrey in before the draft for a workout just like they did with Titus so it's not like they didn't do their homework and were just throwing darts.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...-torrey-smith-a-potential-second-round-target

Scout.com had Cobb, Titus, and Torrey all as four star guys (along with Jon Baldwin) but had the likes of Cecil Shorts (4th rounder) and Denarius Moore (5th rounder) as three star guys, does that make them hacks? Both of these guys appear to be on a higher career trajectory than Titus currently is.

http://profootball.scout.com/a.z?s=127&p=9&c=12&yr=2011&nid=83&lnid=124&rc=4&pid=16

Does that make KC (Baldwin), Cleveland (Greg Little), Rams (Austin Pettis), Redskins (Hankerson), Chargers (Vincent Brown), Giants (Jerrell Jerinigan), Seahawks (Kris Durham), Dolphins (Edmond Gates), Rams (Greg Salas), Ravens (Tanden Doss) all incompetent for passing up on guys who are turning out to be pretty damn good? That's 1/3 of the entire fucking league (not to mention arguably the bombest GM's in the entire league in Newsome) that fucked up.

So going off your logic and the above we can only assume one of two conclusion.

1) That everybody other than you, mhughes, are just utter complete hacks at drafting because you seem to bat like 80% on all your picks?

2) The overall success of drafting a starter at ANY position outside of the 1st round is around 25% (declining more with each subsequent round by a lot) and that expecting a GM to bat even close to 50% in the draft is just complete nonsense and that you have a serious case of revisionist history and illusory superiority?

http://cfn.scout.com/2/1180349.html

http://realcavsfans.com/showthread.php?38395-NFL-Draft-Success-by-Round