Suh Negotiations

[tonyballs]

He's just very narrow in his approach. Only looking at 2013 and sacks/tackles. Suh has 10 and 8 sack year in there too. DTs aren't big tackle guys, they clear things up for the LBs. I think he knows that, he just doesn't want to say he was proven wrong. Oh well.

And him hating on Suh shows what kind of biased warped Lions fan he really is. Hughes, Chargers fan. Go for it.

He's Chico 2.0

 

[tsmith7559]

Depends how they replace him. If you lose him with only a comp pick in 2016 and fail to replace him, the Lions will be screwed. is that worth 14 million per year?

Drafts are happening regardless and Lions can be active in free agency even at 14 million per year for him. If Jones/Houston dont perform in 2014 that is 6.3 million in room they can get next year. If it costs 14 million per to keep your talent it might be worth it. Suh is a known commodity to produce and worth at least 12 million per. I'd say maybe 13. I agree 14 is an overpay but may be necessary for Detroit.

idk..$14mill could have bought J Byrd and A Verner in this yrs FA.
I would take that trade

 

[LKP]

idk..$14mill could have bought J Byrd and A Verner in this yrs FA.
I would take that trade

Suh's money only lowers with a trade or re-sign. Suh's FUTURE worth has nothing to do with not getting Verner and Byrd.

We restructured Suh for Bush, Quin and Levy and Tulloch in 2012/2013. A trade of Suh drops his number to 19 million dead money from 22. There was money available for Verner but they went with Tate over Verner. They could have made Byrd money available or backloaded Byrds contract (like the Saints did) and traded Suh too. The cap room was there for both of those guys but the Lions went with Tate and re-signs.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-orleans-saints/jairus-byrd/

3.5 million for Byrd this year. Lions could handle that contract even with Suh re-signed. In fact they could restructure Calvin for 3.2 million adding only 800k to his number ever year. That gives you Byrd 2014 cap number. And you want Byrd in 2015. Cut Jones, Houston and there would be no Ihedigbo signing. Or a restructure of someone. Lions have the room for that 10 million for Byrd in 2015 when you look at the cap committments for 2015. But they went with Tate and Ihedigbo and re-signs.

 

[mhughes0021]

He's just very narrow in his approach. Only looking at 2013 and sacks/tackles. Suh has 10 and 8 sack year in there too. DTs aren't big tackle guys, they clear things up for the LBs. I think he knows that, he just doesn't want to say he was proven wrong. Oh well.

And him hating on Suh shows what kind of biased warped Lions fan he really is. Hughes, Chargers fan. Go for it.

Thats all im looking at cause thats what were arguing you fucking moron. Youre the only dumbass that brings up previous years when arguing the topic of "he had a mediocre year last year." Anyone that thinks he played to expectations and worth last year doesn't know football.

 

[mhughes0021]

He's Chico 2.0

Ill take that over being lkp 2.0. You NEVER know wtf youre talking about. A wealth of useless knowledge and space. Gratz

 

[LKP]

Thats all im looking at cause thats what were arguing you fucking moron. Youre the only dumbass that brings up previous years when arguing the topic of "he had a mediocre year last year." Anyone that thinks he played to expectations and worth last year doesn't know football.

Suh was not mediocre last year. And again you only looked at sacks/tackles, not the whole picture. So that makes you a moron. And we're talking about his worth. His whole career factors into that.

 

[LKP]

Ill take that over being lkp 2.0. You NEVER know wtf youre talking about. A wealth of useless knowledge and space. Gratz

I know more than you will ever know.

 

[mhughes0021]

He had a down year....how you cant see he was better in previous years proves you dont know wtf youre talking about. I explained to you how blatantly obvious it is that hits and hurries are high cause he was 62nd in sacks. Its a direct correlation. But ur to dumb to understand it.

 

[mhughes0021]

I know more than you will ever know.

I know you do......its just always wrong.

 

[grandy]

Suh WPA (positive win probability added)

2010: 1.37
2011: 0.96
2012: 1.26
2013: 1.61

http://wp.advancedfootballanalytics.com/defenderstats.php?year=2013&pos=DT&season=reg

2013 was not his best year by simple counting stats, but it was his best year in terms of impact.

I've always believed that rating DTs by sacks/tackles/etc. was stupid, their contributions go far beyond the numbers.

 

[tsmith7559]

Suh's money only lowers with a trade or re-sign. Suh's FUTURE worth has nothing to do with not getting Verner and Byrd.

We restructured Suh for Bush, Quin and Levy and Tulloch in 2012/2013. A trade of Suh drops his number to 19 million dead money from 22. There was money available for Verner but they went with Tate over Verner. They could have made Byrd money available or backloaded Byrds contract (like the Saints did) and traded Suh too. The cap room was there for both of those guys but the Lions went with Tate and re-signs.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-orleans-saints/jairus-byrd/

3.5 million for Byrd this year. Lions could handle that contract even with Suh re-signed. In fact they could restructure Calvin for 3.2 million adding only 800k to his number ever year. That gives you Byrd 2014 cap number. And you want Byrd in 2015. Cut Jones, Houston and there would be no Ihedigbo signing. Or a restructure of someone. Lions have the room for that 10 million for Byrd in 2015 when you look at the cap committments for 2015. But they went with Tate and Ihedigbo and re-signs.

i was using those two as examples of FA types you could sign next year. Suh will have huge cap numbers for years to come, my point is two pro bowl type players is better than one DT. Your scenario is shortsighted and continues to push money down the road, sure they can keep restructuring, but like Dallas you have to pay the piper eventually

 

[tsmith7559]

lets say for sake of argument that they were able to extend suh BEFORE free agency started. how much of a difference could that have made in Mayhew/Caldwell's moves??

short team, its a differnce of around 9 mill savings this year

 

[LKP]

i was using those two as examples of FA types you could sign next year. Suh will have huge cap numbers for years to come, my point is two pro bowl type players is better than one DT. Your scenario is shortsighted and continues to push money down the road, sure they can keep restructuring, but like Dallas you have to pay the piper eventually

Lions can have money for free agents next year based on their cap committments. They'll have some carry over too and there is more talk of another increase.

Suh you have one pro bowl player and you can make 2015 lower than 2014 for him at this pont. He is a guy you keep. and I'd rather have him over a Verner. And we can still fit a Byrd type. So it's unnecessary to get rid of Suh. Suh is the Byrd in this scenario actually, he's a stud player.

The second tier contracts is what you change out. Jones and Houston are gone if they don't produce in 2014. 6.3 million in cap room right there. A restructure of Quin/Tulloch wouldn't hurt too bad either (this isn't like Dallas restructuring those 2). Calvin depends how much they restructure since 2016 is already big for him. You don't pay the piper since the cap is increasing. Dallas had cap penalties for 2 years due to what they did in 2011. There is a big difference.

 

[LKP]

short team, its a differnce of around 9 mill savings this year

Depends how it's structured. If they made 2014 his lowest base salary around 6-7 million could have been saved given the 9.7 in restructure money/option bonus money. But Suh didn't have an agent so it's a moot point. Nothing Detroit could do but wait. But they were still active in free agency. I like Ihedigbo and Tate very much and the Bell re-signing. I like Pettigrew too and 4 year 16 million is a good deal based on how it's structured.

 

[mhughes0021]

Suh WPA (positive win probability added)

2010: 1.37
2011: 0.96
2012: 1.26
2013: 1.61

http://wp.advancedfootballanalytics.com/defenderstats.php?year=2013&pos=DT&season=reg

2013 was not his best year by simple counting stats, but it was his best year in terms of impact.

I've always believed that rating DTs by sacks/tackles/etc. was stupid, their contributions go far beyond the numbers.

Then how do you judge impact if no one around him excelled either?

 

[tomdalton22]

Then how do you judge impact if no one around him excelled either?

That's the problem with dumping so much money into a DT. Typically they don't make the impact plays and if he is getting double teams constantly and nobody around him is making plays you have a problem. Either he isn't worth the money because nobody is making plays or the guys around him suck. QB hurries are nice but sacks are huge. A hurry can still result in positive play. A sack backs the offense up and is always a negative play.

 

[grandy]

Then how do you judge impact if no one around him excelled either?

He can only do so much

- Fairley was inconsistent
- Taylor was a 4th round rookie
- Willie Young is (or should be) a backup
- Ansah had injury problems
- the secondary blows


- Levy and Tulloch had solid seasons
- Run defense was much improved

 

[LKP]

Suh has a 10 sack and 8 sack year as well in his Lion career. So it's not like he has no sack impact either. And 2013 he had great impact even though only 5.5 sacks. His worst year was 2011(mainly from run D) but he still got alot of hits and hurries and the Lions had 34 turnovers forced. And the focus on Suh led to Avrils big 2011 many would say.

Suh isn't someone you want to lose unless you get compenstated properly. And it's unnecessary to lose him. You can still get impactful free agents with him. See Tulloch, Bush, Quin and now hopefully Golden Tate and Ihedigbo. Jones and Houston need bounce back from injury years and Slay/Taylor/Ansah need to grow in year 2. Suh isn't a problem, he's a huge asset.

 

[LKP]

And another thing with Byrd. If Detroit matched that Saints offer, would Byrd have come here or do they need to offer more to sway him away from the Saints.

 

[tomdalton22]

And another thing with Byrd. If Detroit matched that Saints offer, would Byrd have come here or do they need to offer more to sway him away from the Saints.

it would probably take more....the Saints are a proven playoff team. The Lions are one of the worst franchises over the past decade.