Suh Negotiations

[mhughes0021]

He can only do so much

- Fairley was inconsistent
- Taylor was a 4th round rookie
- Willie Young is (or should be) a backup
- Ansah had injury problems
- the secondary blows


- Levy and Tulloch had solid seasons
- Run defense was much improved

this I can agree with. Its frustrating trying to argue with someone telling you suh is awesome, dline is awesome, secondary is awesome....and then trying to justify Suhs numbers/impact. Suhs impact makes more sense once you can admit to yourself that the rest of the pieces around him aren't any good....which is something LKP and tony cant do.

Now take a look at your list....and tell me how weve upgraded:
Jones comes back and hes never put up any number in his entire career.

Fairley has always been inconsistent and now with his option not being picked up can
either pack it in or it could light a fire.

Tapp for Young is a wash for me....maybe a slight downgrade....but hes familiar with washburn atleast.

The hope is Taylor and Ansah progress....but that's one of those futuristic kool aid thingies we see from LKP all the time that don't always pan out the way we hope they do.

Will Levy match his production from last year? If LKP is allowed to use the past for everyone else...then I can say in the past levy sucked....so we would have to be pretty lucky to get the same production from him.

Tully is solid...always has been...hopefully he doesn't lose a step.

Secondary still blows.

So in closing....we can pay Suh 20 mil for all I care...but his "impact" will still be negligible (did I just make up a word...its something like that) if the pieces around him don't improve via draft....cause they didn't improve so far through the off season. Then youre counting on rookies to pick up the slack....always a good thing, right?

 

[mhughes0021]

That's the problem with dumping so much money into a DT. Typically they don't make the impact plays and if he is getting double teams constantly and nobody around him is making plays you have a problem. Either he isn't worth the money because nobody is making plays or the guys around him suck. QB hurries are nice but sacks are huge. A hurry can still result in positive play. A sack backs the offense up and is always a negative play.

Plenty of DTs had "impactful" statistical years....Detroit just has the one that did a ton of invisible things that apparently was great but no one benefited from it except apparently adding 2 more picks to levy's int total lmao.

When his hits and hurries lead to poor pass defense.....I could argue that is the opposite of being impactful.

 

[tomdalton22]

this I can agree with. Its frustrating trying to argue with someone telling you suh is awesome, dline is awesome, secondary is awesome....and then trying to justify Suhs numbers/impact. Suhs impact makes more sense once you can admit to yourself that the rest of the pieces around him aren't any good....which is something LKP and tony cant do.

Now take a look at your list....and tell me how weve upgraded:
Jones comes back and hes never put up any number in his entire career.

Fairley has always been inconsistent and now with him option not being picked up can
either pack it in or it could light a fire.

Tapp for Young is a wash for me....maybe a slight downgrade....but hes familiar with washburn atleast.

The hope is Taylor and Ansah progress....but that's one of those futuristic kool aid thingies we see from LKP all the time that don't always pan out the way we hope they do.

Will Levy match his production from last year? If LKP is allowed to use the past for everyone else...then I can say in the past levy sucked....so we would have to be pretty lucky to get the same production from him.

Tully is solid...always has been...hopefully he doesn't lose a step.

Secondary still blows.

So in closing....we can pay Suh 20 mil for all I care...but his "impact" will still be negligible (did I just make up a word...its something like that) if the pieces around him don't improve via draft....cause they didn't improve so far through the off season. Then youre counting on rookies to pick up the slack....always a good thing, right?

Houston back to 2011 form, young CBs develop, Ansah develops, LB's better than SF, roster better than Seattle, Stafford is elite, Stud RBs, Stud OL, Super Bowl caliber roster!!!

 

[LKP]

this I can agree with. Its frustrating trying to argue with someone telling you suh is awesome, dline is awesome, secondary is awesome....and then trying to justify Suhs numbers/impact. Suhs impact makes more sense once you can admit to yourself that the rest of the pieces around him aren't any good....which is something LKP and tony cant do.

Now take a look at your list....and tell me how weve upgraded:
Jones comes back and hes never put up any number in his entire career.

Fairley has always been inconsistent and now with him option not being picked up can
either pack it in or it could light a fire.

Tapp for Young is a wash for me....maybe a slight downgrade....but hes familiar with washburn atleast.

The hope is Taylor and Ansah progress....but that's one of those futuristic kool aid thingies we see from LKP all the time that don't always pan out the way we hope they do.

Will Levy match his production from last year? If LKP is allowed to use the past for everyone else...then I can say in the past levy sucked....so we would have to be pretty lucky to get the same production from him.

Tully is solid...always has been...hopefully he doesn't lose a step.

Secondary still blows.

So in closing....we can pay Suh 20 mil for all I care...but him "impact" will still be negligible (did I just make up a word...its something like that) if the pieces around him don't improve via draft....cause they didn't improve so far through the off season. Then youre counting on rookies to pick up the slack....always a good thing, right?

Well if you using past years for Levy, I'll use past years for Houston 2010-2012. Houston was a good player and Levy had been solid in 2011/2012. You act like Levy was bad. He wasn't.

Jones over Young is the true comparison. Upgrade in 2014 as Jones is the starter and would have been in 2013

Ansah/Taylor year 2 verus rookie Ansah/Tayor and hurt Ansah. Upgrade in 2014. It's not wishful thinking to think year 2 Ansah/Taylor will be better. Ansah is already good in sacks and run defense. He doesn't have the consistent pressure (but hits and hurries don't matter to you so you should love Ansah).
And Tapp=Idonije is the comparison for the last DE spot.

So we have upgraded at DE, Houston can be a good CB since now we use their full Lion career, Quin is a good player, Ihedigbo is good in run support and blitzing (upgrade over Delams) and Slay back to year 2 development whch is likely. It is not just wishful thinking, most players take that jump in year 2. But if you want a good CB other than Slay, then Mathis had a good 2013 other than picks (coverage was good).

Fairley is inconsistent but he is still more good than bad. Fairley is an asset. Run defense and gets pressure.

This defense has alot of talent. You all severly underrate Levy,Houston,Quin and Fairely and the ability of year 2 guys compared to year 1. Jones we will see if he can stay healthy.

 

[mhughes0021]

Houston back to 2011 form, young CBs develop, Ansah develops, LB's better than SF, roster better than Seattle, Stafford is elite, Stud RBs, Stud OL, Super Bowl caliber roster!!!

lol

 

[mhughes0021]

Well if you using past years for Levy, I'll use past years for Houston 2010-2012. Houston was a good player and Levy had been solid in 2011/2012. You act like Levy was bad. He wasn't.

Jones over Young is the true comparison. Upgrade in 2014 as Jones is the starter and would have been in 2013

Ansah/Taylor year 2 verus rookie Ansah/Tayor and hurt Ansah. Upgrade in 2014. It's not wishful thinking to think year 2 Ansah/Taylor will be better. Ansah is already good in sacks and run defense. He doesn't have the consistent pressure (but hits and hurries don't matter to you so you should love Ansah).
And Tapp=Idonije is the comparison for the last DE spot.

So we have upgraded at DE, Houston can be a good CB since now we use their full Lion career, Quin is a good player, Ihedigbo is good in run support and blitzing (upgrade over Delams) and Slay back to year 2 development whch is likely. It is not just wishful thinking, most players take that jump in year 2. But if you want a good CB other than Slay, then Mathis had a good 2013 other than picks (coverage was good).

Fairley is inconsistent but he is still more good than bad. Fairley is an asset. Run defense and gets pressure.

This defense has alot of talent. You all severly underrate Levy,Houston,Quin and Fairely and the ability of year 2 guys compared to year 1. Jones we will see if he can stay healthy.

but jones has never had a impactful statistical season in his career....ever. Hes a small DT that moved to DE cause he got trucked too much at dt...then he blew out his knee. That's the guy you are saying will benefit from suh being doubled and causing a bunch of hurries?

 

[LKP]

but jones has never had a impactful statistical season in his career....ever. Hes a small DT that moved to DE cause he got trucked too much at dt...then he blew out his knee. That's the guy you are saying will benefit from suh being doubled and causing a bunch of hurries?

He doesn't have to be the guy. Ansah is the guy, Taylor year 2 and yes I think Jones will benefit from Suh. Jason Jones had an impact in 2012 very positive when he played for Seattle. And Jones had no DT help by the way when he played DE for the Titans. And Jones had a monster year in 2010 for the Titans too by the way.

Is Jones better than Young. Yes or No?

 

[mhughes0021]

He doesn't have to be the guy. Ansah is the guy, Taylor year 2 and yes I think Jones will benefit from Suh. Jason Jones had an impact in 2012 very positive when he played.

Is Jones better than Young. Yes or No?

I think young is better at getting to the qb. Jones was a good fit for taking KVBs spot...to hold the line and control his gap vs the run. It seems they have moved Ansah there though now. So unless things switch again which they very well could.....I think jones backs up ansah.

 

[Mitchrapp]

I'm not sure how much I'd be comfortable in how much Suh gets but sacks might be the worst measuring stick for a DT. The Ends should be putting up the stats if Suh is doing his job. But we had a rook and a guy that shouldn't be a starter.

With that being said if Suh doesn't sign an extension I won't be bothered by it much.

 

[LKP]

I think young is better at getting to the qb. Jones was a good fit for taking KVBs spot...to hold the line and control his gap vs the run. It seems they have moved Ansah there though now. So unless things switch again which they very well could.....I think jones backs up ansah.

You want your LE to be the run stopper. Ansah and Jones are in the correct spots. Both have been good against the run in the past.

Jones had a monster year in 2010 with the Titans at DT and did very well before he got hurt with Seattle in 2012. Jones at DE struggled in 2011 but again he had no help at DT.

The only games Jones had help was 2013 the 2.5 games he played with Detroit. We'll see if what he can do at DE with help finally and if he can stay healthy. I remember a guy named Stafford always being hurt then got it together. Houston, Jones and Broyles could finally shake the injury bug. Each year is very different.

Look if Houston and Jones suck this year, I'll want them gone just as much as you. But they both have talent and have produced in the past, just not 2013.

 

[grandy]

this I can agree with. Its frustrating trying to argue with someone telling you suh is awesome, dline is awesome, secondary is awesome....and then trying to justify Suhs numbers/impact. Suhs impact makes more sense once you can admit to yourself that the rest of the pieces around him aren't any good....which is something LKP and tony cant do.

People talked about how "great" the d-line was supposed to be last year and it irked me a little bit. Looking at it from a realistic point of view...it was Suh surrounded by a DT in Fairley who shows occasional flashes and can't play a high percentage of snaps and backup/inexperienced rookie DEs. I guess you could call it "good" but "great" always felt like an exaggeration to me.

I feel like my some of my assumptions about defensive strengths were proven wrong last season. A good D-line can't completely hide a shitty secondary and likewise, a shitty secondary can make a D-line look worse than the talent would suggest. It's more of a relationship where both position groups benefit each other but can drag each other down.

I've always leaned toward CB at the top of this draft as I feel one outstanding CB coupled with a few healthy bounce backs could be enough to make the defense much better as a whole. But that's just my optimism speaking.

I was pleased with the run defense though, hopefully they can stay strong there and possibly improve upon it.

------------

As far as the Suh negotiations...I really couldn't care less one way or the other provided they plan it out correctly. I have no "fan love" for Suh, I guess you'd say, he makes the team better and that's all I care about.

If they do re-sign him, it should be for a reasonable amount that doesn't hurt the Lions 4-5 years down the line. Similar to what tom said, they better commit to the signing too and continue to build around him. Throwing a bunch of money at him and skimping out on other areas expecting him to solely carry the load is just a bad move IMO.

If they don't re-sign him, they better have a plan B in place to fill that hole (I wouldn't be entirely against drafting a DT early in the draft...while unlikely, it's possible that both Suh and Fairley could be gone next season, I'll pose that question next).

 

[grandy]

Now my D-line question

What if Fairley sucks next season and Suh declines his option? Should they plan for that possibility now or just hope for the best?

 

[LKP]

And as a side note, if Jones or Houston struggle in 2014, I'm comfortable with Mathis/Slay to take over and those guys getting benched if they deserve it. And it's only 2 games but I like what I saw from Greenwood. Especially if being coached up by Austin with an aggressive blitzing defense.

Aggressive Austin, Washburn on Dline, Sheridan and Alan Williams both former DCs. I like this staff with this defense.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Now my D-line question

What if Fairley sucks next season and Suh declines his option? Should they plan for that possibility now or just hope for the best?

Probably depends if Mayhew is looking for now or the future. Contingency plan is always a viable option but we still need secondary help, help at linebacker, DE help etc.

 

[tsmith7559]

Depends how it's structured. If they made 2014 his lowest base salary around 6-7 million could have been saved given the 9.7 in restructure money/option bonus money. But Suh didn't have an agent so it's a moot point. Nothing Detroit could do but wait. But they were still active in free agency. I like Ihedigbo and Tate very much and the Bell re-signing. I like Pettigrew too and 4 year 16 million is a good deal based on how it's structured.

i went with a max. scenario

 

[tsmith7559]

Now my D-line question

What if Fairley sucks next season and Suh declines his option? Should they plan for that possibility now or just hope for the best?

throw in our 3rd DT is an UFA too.. Mosley

 

[mhughes0021]

Now my D-line question

What if Fairley sucks next season and Suh declines his option? Should they plan for that possibility now or just hope for the best?

I think they made up their minds on fairley one way or another already (im not saying the answer is no just cause they didn't pick up his option though). If hes not in their future plans I think Donald should be a serious option at 10. Value and need would be there. Im hoping for a defense heavy draft....with potential for a WR pick here or there if the right person is on the board when we pick.

rd 1 gilbert or Donald
rd 2 kareem martin or Crichton
rd 3 bpa WR or S
rd 4 bpa WR or S
comp 4 Anthony Johnson
comp 4 bpa qb

 

[Mitchrapp]

Donald, we'd have good rotational depth and if one or both leave we're not up a complete proverbial creek without a paddle.

 

[LKP]

I don't get why you would think Donald would be in play hughes if you don't think Suh makes a big impact? Wouldn't you want the CB or stud WR at 10. Though it seems a stud WR won't be there.

Though I'm sure Mayhew thinks DTs make an impact and that Donald could be BPA so I get why Donald could be a Mayhew pick at 10.

And I find it funny that you would consider DT a need since it's a future need (not 2014). This was the EXACT same scenario with Broyles in 2012 (he was a need but a future need with Burlesons age and cap number). Pick 54(late 2nd) wasn't a reach for Broyles either. And that was late 2nd round, you are talking top ten first round now for future needs (2015 DT).

 

[tomdalton22]

I don't get why you would think Donald would be in play hughes if you don't think Suh makes a big impact? Wouldn't you want the CB or stud WR at 10. Though it seems a stud WR won't be there.

Though I'm sure Mayhew thinks DTs make an impact and that Donald could be BPA so I get why Donald could be a Mayhew pick at 10.

And I find it funny that you would consider DT a need since it's a future need (not 2014). This was the EXACT same scenario with Broyles in 2012 (he was a need but a future need with Burlesons age and cap number). Pick 54(late 2nd) wasn't a reach for Broyles either. And that was late 2nd round, you are talking top ten first round now for future needs (2015 DT).

Chance Warmack was the 10th pick in last year's draft. He signed a 4 year $12M contract. Rotate Donald in next year and replace Suh in 2015