Welcome to Detroit Sports Forum!

By joining our community, you'll be able to connect with fellow fans that live and breathe Detroit sports just like you!

Get Started
  • If you are no longer able to access your account since our recent switch from vBulletin to XenForo, you may need to reset your password via email. If you no longer have access to the email attached to your account, please fill out our contact form and we will assist you ASAP. Thanks for your continued support of DSF.

2014 Draft Thread

right...Stafford is not Brady or Manning....he is FAR from those two QBs. Seattle and SF BUILT TEAMS. They are complete teams that have depth almost everywhere and DON'T rely on Stud WRs. Denver has a HOF QB, one great WR and some good WRs. Detroit has a slightly above average QB, one great WR and a mediocre defense that is terrible vs. the pass. The smart thing to do is build the team including depth, fill the needs and try and build something that might have some playoff success. Adding another #1 WR is not the answer IMO.

what? you want to build depth but not at the position that was most blatantly needing more depth than they had? they had depth at every position on the D that was not drastically different from the starters, especially from #1 to #2 guys so that the drop off when #1 went down was not result in a complete cluster fuck.

they lost CJ and it was worse than a cluster fuck because there was no #2 who could pass as a pseudo #1. they need WR talent and depth more than any other position on the team. CJ goes down and the team is 0 Wins and All Losses
 
Welker undrafted FA, Decker & Julius were both 4th round picks. Kind of supports my philosophy of not drafting a WR at 10.

how long did it take for them to be productive? how long do the lions have to wait before they are once again re-inventing themselves?
 
what? you want to build depth but not at the position that was most blatantly needing more depth than they had? they had depth at every position on the D that was not drastically different from the starters, especially from #1 to #2 guys so that the drop off when #1 went down was not result in a complete cluster fuck.

they lost CJ and it was worse than a cluster fuck because there was no #2 who could pass as a pseudo #1. they need WR talent and depth more than any other position on the team. CJ goes down and the team is 0 Wins and All Losses

no....go back and look at what I said earlier in the thread. I said they need WRs but not in the first round. 2nd or 3rd then later in the draft + a vet FA that can actully catch the ball. The defensive secondary has depth...the problem is the starters should be backups! They need better talent on defesne. That is their biggest weakness!
 
how long did it take for them to be productive? how long do the lions have to wait before they are once again re-inventing themselves?

The most productive WR from the 2013 NFL draft was Keenan Allen who was drafted in the 3rd round.
 
Welker undrafted FA, Decker & Julius were both 4th round picks. Kind of supports my philosophy of not drafting a WR at 10.

That's like saying Brady and Romo supports your philosophy of not drafting QBs until the 6th round.
 
no....go back and look at what I said earlier in the thread. I said they need WRs but not in the first round. 2nd or 3rd then later in the draft + a vet FA that can actully catch the ball. The defensive secondary has depth...the problem is the starters should be backups! They need better talent on defesne. That is their biggest weakness!

I agree that would be ideal. But umm...we tried that exact MO with this bunch and we got a dumpster of hot garbage.
 
The most productive WR from the 2013 NFL draft was Keenan Allen who was drafted in the 3rd round.

We drafted Derrick Williams in the 3rd round. I'd rather be safe than sorry and grab Austin, Patterson or Hopkins. And the guys coming out this year may be better than either of those three.
 
The most productive WR from the 2013 NFL draft was Keenan Allen who was drafted in the 3rd round.

Other round three guys Terrance Williams, Steadman Bailey, Markus Wheaton, Marquise Goodwin...these type of guys ain't helping us. If you are asking MM to pick WR talent out of a crowd good luck.
 
Other round three guys Terrance Williams, Steadman Bailey, Markus Wheaton, Marquise Goodwin...these type of guys ain't helping us. If you are asking MM to pick WR talent out of a crowd good luck.

Tavon Austin was taken at #8. He isn't going to help the Lions either. DeAndre Hopkins taken at 27 and Patterson at 29.

The Lions have tried going top picks on WRs too....that hasn't really worked out very well.
 
Tavon Austin was taken at #8. He isn't going to help the Lions either. DeAndre Hopkins taken at 27 and Patterson at 29.

The Lions have tried going top picks on WRs too....that hasn't really worked out very well.

Patterson or Hopkins would have been major upgrades on the outside, we don't need an Austin type because Bush fills his role. They weren't options based on their talent at 5. There may be three that are options at ten based on talent this year. Not saying there will be outside of Watkins.
 
He didn't drop due to talent; he fell due to character. SD got a nice gift, but he could end up being Titus Jr., Jr.

we drafted delmas, titus, leshoure, suh in recent years...not so sure this front office cares much about character.
 
we drafted delmas, titus, leshoure, suh in recent years...not so sure this front office cares much about character.
forgive me if i'm wrong, but i don't recall any character issues for Delmas, Leshoure and Suh in college... can you inform me of what the case was with those three?
 
Holy crap Delmas was abandoned by his drug dealing parents fleeing from the cops, Leshoure was born in jail to a drug addicted mother. Good for both those guys making anything out of their lives.
 
forgive me if i'm wrong, but i don't recall any character issues for Delmas, Leshoure and Suh in college... can you inform me of what the case was with those three?

have you seen or heard a delmas interview? The lions conduct interviews as well prior to the draft....they still selected him.

Leshoure is a pothead....we moved up to take him.

Suh had several anger issue reports in college.

and ya...fairley dropped due to questionable work ethic and character concerns....based on mayhews recent comments....not much has changed since his time here.
 
Last edited:
have you seen or heard a delmas interview? The lions conduct interviews as well prior to the draft....they still selected him.
yeah i have, but what does that have to do with character concerns?
Leshoure is a pothead....we moved up to take him.
great generalization there. unfortunately i was looking actual sources, not your opinion. thankfully cheeno supplied some of those
Suh had several anger issue reports in college.
again, what does that have to do with character concerns? did he kill anyone in college? was he constantly getting into bar fights? sexually assaulting female students? i've heard that he was a very pleasant person until he stepped on the field.
and ya...fairley dropped due to questionable work ethic and character concerns....based on mayhews recent comments....not much has changed since his time here.
no argument here. tremendous talent, poor work ethic. but i never heard about the character concerns.
 
Last edited:
yeah i have, but what does that have to do with character concerns?

great generalization there. unfortunately i was looking actual sources, not your opinion. thankfully cheeno supplied some of those

again, what does that have to do with character concerns? did he kill anyone in college? was he constantly getting into bar fights? sexually assaulting female students? i've heard that he was a very pleasant person until he stepped on the field.

no argument here. tremendous talent, poor work ethic. but i never heard about the character concerns.

well once again I have a very different idea of what character is I suppose. This reminds me of the regression discussion I had with tony lol. IMO personality, work ethic, being a pothead, anger concerns...those all encompass part of ones character. They should all be red flags...and for guys like fairley, leshoure and Suh...they've all had on/off the field issues since being in the league so those red flags actually became reality. But again...that only matters to organizations that care about that type of stuff.
 
http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/cfb/46136/349/peshek-wr-metrics-20

Peshek: WR Metrics 2.0

Since posting the first tier of WRs, I received a number of tweets and emails asking why “X” player wasn’t in the first tier. A player’s exclusion from a tier doesn’t mean they won’t have some incredible stats, it just means I ran out of space to include them in the piece. To allay your concerns this week, I added a fifth player – Jarvis Landry to compare to the rest of the crop. The stats were gathered by hand charting every target from every game of these players. It’s important to note that these stats won’t predict which WR will be better, but explain their production and complement film study. You can find the first WR tier here.

Archive:
QB Metrics featuring Teddy Bridgewater, Derek Carr, Blake Bortles and Johnny Manziel.
WR Metrics 1.0 featuring Sammy Watkins, Mike Evans, Marqise Lee and Kelvin Benjamin.


Where Did They Catch the Ball?

The table below represents the percentage of catches in each zone, it is color-coded so that an above-average number of receptions is greener and a below-average number is redder.

Completions
fGdqfcG.jpg



- You can’t get more average in terms of receptions than Brandin Cooks. Aside from some slight variation, Cooks has a strong distribution across all the zones showing that he isn’t a one trick pony.

- Jordan Matthews’ map of completions is very similar to that of Sammy Watkins. They both caught around 50% of their receptions behind the line of scrimmage with limited experience downfield. Whereas the average WR caught 35% of their passes deeper than 10 yards, Matthews only caught approximately 24%

- Representing an offense that often eschews shorter passes, Landry and Beckham both caught more passes downfield than average. Striking though, is the fact that Odell Beckham caught 62% of balls thrown to him past 10 yards. Beckham is clearly the deep threat here while Landry shows a tendency toward more intermediate passes.

- While he caught a low amount of passes 20+ yards (10.3%), Allen Robinson also caught a greater percentage of balls in the intermediate portion of the field. His biggest strength and most often run routes seem to be along the sideline in the intermediate zones.


What Did They Do After They Caught It?

YAC
3WRDcUG.jpg



- At first blush Allen Robinson’s YAC looks very impressive at 7.56 yards per reception. That’s nothing to sneeze at regardless of circumstances. However, that number is propped up significantly due to Robinson’s ability to gain nearly 14.25 yards after the catch on screens. When that’s taken away, his YAC drops down to 4.2. There’s a good explanation that we’ll get to in a bit.

- Noticeable with Beckham is how deep he catches the ball - 13.81 yards from the line of scrimmage on average. His run after the catch overall tops out at 5.6 yards, which puts him in the middle of the pack. His strength though may not be creating amazing yards after the catch, but rather gaining first downs by beating his defender downfield.

- Jordan Matthews is in a similar YAC predicament as Robinson. His overall YAC of 7.8 would put him second in this class only behind Sammy Watkins. However, his screens up this number significantly. On the 55% of his receptions that aren’t screens, he averages 4.7 YPC – a number that is slightly below average.

- To be honest, I was a bit surprised at how low Cooks’ YAC was. For a quick WR, you’d expect much more ability after the catch. However, I believe this is a product of Oregon State’s offense. While Brandin Cooks would have led all these draftable WRs in YAC during the 2012 season, Markus Wheaton (then #1 WR) had similarly low YAC. I’ll explain this more in the next section.


How Did they Catch the Ball?

The chart below represents the final break each WR made before catching the ball. The goal isn’t to tell you exactly what routes each WR ran, but the variety of breaks they made as well as how those affected their production. For instance, comebacks typically yield very little YAC (2.5 yards on average) while posts/corner/slants yield high yards after the catch. The chart has factored out screens.

8zDt81u.jpg


- Here’s where we get into Brandin Cooks’ low YAC. As I noted in the above intro, comebacks nearly always yield 2.5 yards after the catch regardless of receiver while posts/corners/slants bring the highest YAC. 39% of Cooks’ routes were comebacks while only 18% were high YAC yield routes. It seems that the number one WR in the Oregon State offense is destined to get low YAC due to play design.

- Allen Robinson is in the same predicament, except nearly half of his receptions were on routes breaking back to the QB. We can’t necessarily say he would have been incredible at gaining yards after the catch in another system, but when we see that he averaged 14 yards on screens, it’s obvious that he’s not a slow mover.

- It’s much harder to explain away Jordan Matthews’ poor YAC than Cooks or Robinson. 45% of his non-screen receptions were high YAC producing slants/posts/corners, so why did he barely average 4.6 yards after the catch? It’s tough to say, but that’s when you have to start wondering if his run after the catch ability is a product of the Vanderbilt system.

- If we want to advance a pretty strong narrative we can put Jarvis Landry in the ‘possession receiver’ bucket where 36% of his receptions were on hard breaking in/out routes and another 33% were on slants and posts/corners. He does have a wide range of route running experience which is really a positive.

- Odell Beckham, like Landry, has a wide variety of route running experience (and runs those routes well) which should translate nicely to the NFL.


How Are Their Hands?

Here are the drop rates for each of the WRs. I defined drops as balls that were easy receptions and likely bounced off the hands of a WR, not passes that a WR ‘could have caught’ with an acrobatic play.

teHMW5o.jpg



- There’s not a whole lot of bad to see in this group. Anything below 6 or 7% is just about normal for NCAA wide receivers.

- The biggest player to watch out for here is Jordan Matthews who has a slightly above-average drop rate of 7.69%. There were a few 50/50 drops that I hedged on Matthews’ side for. He could realistically be anywhere between 7-11%. If you’re watching Matthews intently, keep an eye on his hands.

- I only have 2 dropped balls for Landry all season, that’s incredible.

So much of a WR’s numbers depend on the quarterback, so we can’t always use stats as effectively as we do for other positions. However, that doesn’t mean there isn’t value in them. Whether you use them to identify problems with a prospect’s hands or examine a WR’s YAC in depth, there is merit if you understand their potential and limitations. That’s all I have for now. I’ll answer any questions and tweet out additional info I have on Twitter @NU_Gap. Thanks for reading.
 
Back
Top